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Valued Member
Philippines
383 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2010  7:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have over 300 reference books on coins so if you need a reference just ask and I will let you know what I have.

Your books alone would cost a very considerable amount not to mention the knowledge you have acquired from it... and now I can't imagine how big the bulk of your entire coin collection is?
Do you plan to write your own book about counterfeits swamperbob?
Pillar of the Community
United States
3168 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2010  10:07 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do plan to write a book on the counterfeit Cap and Ray coins, some day. I have no date or time table. I guess it will be when I stop finding interesting new material to add to my collection.

At present, I own 1,986 counterfeit Cap and Ray 8R coins. (I have computerized only that part of my collection.) I found two more C&R cfts today at a flea market. One was a Riddell #425 a fantasy piece. But the seller had no clue.

I also saw two Chinese made Bust dollars 1798 and 1806 with price tags over $600 each! These two were poor copies, but he also had a nice silver numismatic quality counterfeit with a price tag of $1800. So my question is which would you rather spend $50 for a reference book or several hundred on a forgery?

The value of the books is in the information they provide. That information can be worth much more than the actual cost of the books themselves. Another recent example is a small group of 9 counterfeit 8Rs that I bought a couple weeks ago. They had been purchased as REAL but of course they were all fakes. The buyer lost several hundred dollars on that one transaction.

So my question is: Would it have been better for him to have spent $100 or even $200 on a text(s) that could have provided solid information on the coins - BEFORE he made his purchase?
Valued Member
Philippines
383 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2010  6:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So my question is: Would it have been better for him to have spent $100 or even $200 on a text(s) that could have provided solid information on the coins - BEFORE he made his purchase?

Its true, on my part I would rather spent even $200 on studying a chosen coin than start collecting numerous duplicates, triplicates and so on....
Your collection of 1,986 caps & rays counterfeits is unsurpassable (non-pareil), wow! Writing a book on this would definitely help a lot of people from loosing tremendous amount of money in getting fake items. I was also once a victim of these forgers in getting a fake dos mundos with laurel leaf edges that looked like real. That's the reason why I've stopped collecting Pillar Dollar 8 reales...
I hope your plan in writing said book would be in the near, nearer, nearest future because definitely it will contain the knowledge that most of us are looking for...the world in numismatics needs you swamperbob !
Valued Member
China
64 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2010  09:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nicolashsing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gilboy's "Columnarios" for the Pillar type Spanish American coins
Calbeto's "Compendium of the VIII Reales" Two volumes covers all mints
Dunigan and Parker's "Resplandores" covers every major variety of Cap and Ray 8R from Mexico 1400 varieties 1823-1897
"Medio Duros" the book that covers the 4R series
I want to see the books above,besides I want the books focus on Guatemala and costa rica.
But how can I get them?
Pillar of the Community
United States
3168 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2010  2:41 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The books you ask about are all available on eBay if you wait long enough.

The Riddell Monograph has recently been reprinted twice and is available for about $20 from Amazon.com. When I originally prepared this post it was the most difficult to find book of the one's you mentioned. There is also an on line copy of the book on Google so you can read the entire book there at no cost.

Hooknecks can still be found at Amazon in the used section but the supplement (which lists the forgeries) is no longer available. The book often appears on eBay one copy as recently as 2 months ago.

The other books all appear on eBay from time to time.

Resplandores is still available from the author Mike Dunigan in Texas for $125.

Gilboy's book on the Columnarios is recently sold out but I have seen at least 6 for sale in the past year on eBay. They typically run about $100.

The final two books - Calbettos book on the 8Rs and the "Medios Duros" are long out of print so it will take longer to find them, but I have seen both on eBay within the last year and I often see them on the lists of Numismatic bookstores.

Just keep hunting (use the search feature on eBay to let you know when they are posted and I am sure you can find them.

In the meantime, I can search specific topics for you and let you know what they may say on a subject.
New Member
United States
3 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2010  12:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add barrogak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Swamperbob, I'm new to the Coin Community. I've been looking for a replacement
to "Mexican Coin Magic/Ralph". I guest I finally found it.
I have had some contact with Swamperbob on eBay some years ago, and
I have read your articles presented on Mexican coin Magic. Great stuff.
Anyway, I would like to contribute some info on books.
The title is " Le Monnayage et les Monnaies Fautees" by Jean-Claude CHORT,
and the period covered 1780-2009.
I got my copy from Victory Gadoury in France.
This is a great book to study all about die striking errors.
Again, really enjoy your contributions.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3168 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2010  4:15 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
barrogak I also recall your name - it is fairly odd one so that is not much of a surprise I guess. But I can not recall the precise context - that is the aging process. I suspect we must have met regarding a couterfeit of course.

I have met a great number of people during my nearly 11 years on eBay. My last count was that 815 different people have sold me one or more counterfeit 8Rs. Of that number 496 individuals have sold me only ONE coin. But eBay certainly has opened up a lot of new counterfeit hunting territory for me and has allowed me to increase my collection by a factor or over 3 since 1999.

I also miss Ralph's periodical and web site. I had a few articles ahead but have now used most of the subject matter on the forum. I was hoping that the periodic column would pave the way of my book. I think I can do the same on the forum. It also has the distinct advantage of being interactive. That allows me to tweak some of my theories as new facts are brought to light. It is a good sounding board. The forum is also superior because it allows timely questions related to things happening right now. The world of Modern forgery is constantly changing as forgers improve on their craft and the word gets out better. I only wish we had a wider audience.

The book you cite "Le Monnayage et les Monnaies Fautees" sounds like it could still be in print. Is it? Also since you own it - does it contain much in the way of period descriptions or drawings of minting apparatus from the early period? I wonder if it would be worth my buying it to see what was happening in France in the period from 1780 to 1840?

Hope to hear from you again.
Valued Member
United States
363 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2011  5:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know this is a pretty old thread but its stickied to the top of the page so I'll just use it.

Question:

I have been using "resplandores" for about 3-4 months now and I am very impressed but I was wondering why the authors make no mention of the cap & rays "third" side (edge)?

Especially in the beginning of the book where it talks about how the coins were made it seems odd that they wouldn't mention anything regarding the unique "engrailed" edge that these coins have?

Anyone have any info thoughts or opinions on this? I wish the book would have had that info then it would be even better.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3168 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2011  11:50 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RealPeso I presume that time, space and cost were limiting factors for Dunigan and Parker. Any discussion of edge dies is really breaking new ground. The only really supportive member of the established community of "Mexican" authors has been Dave O'Harrow. I consulted with him while the Supplement to Hooknecks was in preparation and we shared photos of our counterfeits. In our many discussions, Dave clearly recognized the value of edge studies ago and suggested I pursue that line of thinking. Most of the other "big names" in the Mexican Coin business brushed off the importance of my line of thinking.

I am now working in collaboration with several others to publish on the subject of the contemporary 8R Portrait forgeries and it is difficult to get others interested in the edges.

It appears that none of my collaborators are willing to invest the time or expense in the edges. To me it is critically important but to others it is of "little value". They are focused on the two face dies and have never been interested in the two other dies used to create the edges. One of them flatly indicated that he didn't think that counterfeits identifiable only by edge characteristics should be included - as I recall it was "too confusing".

When I publish on the Cap and Ray cfts I definitely intend to devote substantial time and space to the 3rd and 4th dies. They are the untapped mother lode of information on forgery.
Valued Member
United States
363 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2011  3:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It appears that none of my collaborators are willing to invest the time or expense in the edges. To me it is critically important but to others it is of "little value". They are focused on the two face dies and have never been interested in the two other dies used to create the edges. One of them flatly indicated that he didn't think that counterfeits identifiable only by edge characteristics should be included - as I recall it was "too confusing".

When I publish on the Cap and Ray cfts I definitely intend to devote substantial time and space to the 3rd and 4th dies. They are the untapped mother lode of information on forgery.


It is truly unfortunate that the edge dies have not been addressed in previous publications, even with my limited number of 8R's and recent entrance into this area of collecting I automatically realized the importance of having access to a "reference" on the different edge dies for these coins, just the fact that there are different edges for different mints would be sufficient cause to try to document or catalog the various styles.

I will definitely buy your book when the time comes swamperbob, just from reading all of your responses on this forum I am already indebted to you for your time and help.
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2011  6:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Macro122 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob:

You mentioned to me in my thread the other day that you collected US Capped Bust Half Dollars at one point. Are you familiar with Russ Logan and his use of edge die mirrors?

Edge dies have been studied to a reasonable degree by a few Bust Half Dollar Nuts. There is an outstanding emission sequence study that was done on Capped Bust Half Dollars that utilizes edge dies to a great degree. It was done by Ivan Leaman and Don Gunnet. It is published in the Coinage of the Americas Conference series by the American Numismatic Society. It is entitled 'America's Silver Coinage, 1794-1891'. This is a must read if you want to see how interesting and important edge die study can be.

There has been only one case that I can recall in that series where one of the edge dies was inverted and it was in 1818. Half of the lettered edge was correct and the other half was upside down. That error is fairly popular, but in general, edge errors don't attract very much attention there either. The idea of connecting die marriages in an accurate emission sequence would have been virtually impossible without the use of edge die study. It was used extensively for emission sequence study of Capped Bust Half Dimes as well, which were struck with reeded edges. This series is loaded with Re-marriages as well that were exposed to a large degree by edge die study.

Of course, these series' were struck using only one coining press at a time for a large portion of the time. So, the correlation to 8 Reales is limited. The study mentioned also includes a description and drawing of the type of Castaing edge lettering machine that is thought to have been used there. I don't know how much is currently known about the edging machines used in Mexico during the period of the Resplandores, but both definitely used the same general idea of two parallel bars on the edges.

Another book with some interesting related information would be 'The Art and Craft of Coinmaking' by Denis Cooper.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3168 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2011  11:48 am  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Macro122 I am familiar with the edge studies done in conjunction with Overton's book and I have seen the edge photos but did not know how those photos were taken. I started studying the edges of the Mexican coins because of Overton's book and because all authors previous to Dave O'Harrow had barely mentioned edges.

With Mexican mints there are a few issues that do make edge studies more difficult. First, there were 14 mints and each mint used different edge dies. The edges were never fully standardized. Second, each mint had one or MORE edging mills. I believe I read that Mexico City used 7 edge mills at one time. Each edge mill could use different edge dies and the coinage that resulted could easily be mixed up. Three, dies were replaced ONE at a time NOT in pairs so that you have many examples with two different halves. This provides the opportunity for sequencing dies but only in tiny mints using ONE edge mill. Four, since production varied wildly with political turmoil and mint license changes the number of edgers used varied. Six, in some cases machinery from one mint was transferred to another mint resulting in some edge designs traveling.

Taken together this all makes the edge studies far more complex that Bust Halves but worth undertaking.

The key issues I have drawn from my study of edges is that while we may never be able to develop a full edge sequence we can :

One - make sure a coin is edged correctly.
Two - identify counterfeit edge designs as well as real ones.

A coin with an incorrectly applied edge is a forgery and a coin using a known counterfeit edge is also a forgery - regardless of what the two face dies look like or what the coin is made of.

That final conclusion is one that most numismatists do not want to face up to because many coins they believe are real DO NOT PASS THE TEST.

At one point you asked about the original equipment and dies used for edging. Some of the machines and dies STILL EXIST in the Mexico City mint in a vault that is NOT open to the general public. Dave O'Harrow was given limited access to the vault and saw the equipment IN PERSON. So it does exist and could be studied. Exactly how many machines and dies have survived is UNKNOWN.
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2011  9:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Macro122 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob:

The edge mirrors were circular rings that had an internal diameter just barely larger than that of the coin. The height of the ring was about the same as the thickness of the coin (I believe). The internal surface of the ring was cut at a 45 degree angle. The rings were made of stainless steel and the internal surface was highly polished to a mirror surface.

The ring was placed around the coin. The edge of the coin was visible all the way around from directly above. The edge inscription appears to encircle the outer edge of the coin.

A few years ago, I had a friend that is a die maker, make me a set of edge mirrors for all US silver denominations and one for Mexican 8 Reales.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3168 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2011  11:05 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Macro122 That is so simple. Now I will have to try to locate one or have one made. What did yours cost?
Valued Member
United States
466 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2011  1:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ponterio (Stacks and Bowers) and Mexican Coin Company have the Gilboy book for $200.

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