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Minor Doubled Dies: Why More From Philadelphia Than Denver?

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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 10/01/2025  06:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A bit more information RE: Quality Control:

Riddler
Quality control differs between the Philadelphia and Denver Mints. The placement of Riddlers is one example. Philadelphia uses the Riddlers at more stages in the minting process than does the Denver Mint. (At Denver, riddlers are normally used only after the coin is struck, whereas at Philadelphia they might be used at each or any step in the manufacturing process.)

After the coins are minted, a test is performed to make sure the coins are properly sized. The coins are placed in a machine the Mint calls a riddler. A riddler consists of several levels of sizing screens that have holes in them. The first screen consists of holes that are slightly larger than the actual size of the coin. The screen is shaken and the coins that fall through the holes reach the second level. Coins that do not fall through are too big and are recycled.

The holes in the second sizing screen are slightly smaller than the proper diameter of the coin. Any coins that fall through the holes of this screen are too small and are recycled. 2
1. James Wiles, PhD, The Modern Minting Process, Page 6
2. https://www.money.org/thedollarproj...sizingscreen

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fortcollins's Avatar
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 Posted 10/01/2025  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As I thought about this topic, I realized that there is a nerdy, but related, topic that should be considered with it: the mint's intentionally-created minor doubled dies.

At least two dates in the Lincoln Cent series have intentionally-created doubled dies: 1941 and 1949.

In 1941, two different hubs had the second "T" of TRUST break. One of them also had the first "T" of TRUST break. Multiple dies with broken "T" first hubbings were then re-hubbed with an intact "T" for the second hubbing. That there are so many of these intact-over-broken-T dies strongly suggests that the second hubbing was done intentionally to make the "T" look better. On many (and possibly all) of these intact-over-broken-T dies, the four in the date is also doubled. My examination of the shape of the rehubbed four suggests that it is not a match for the four used in 1941. It more closely resembles the four used in 1940. (All eleven of the fours in the decade, including both fours in 1944, are different.) My best guess is that the Philadelphia Mint used a 1940 hub with the last digit ground down. On two die pair, there is a very weak impression that strongly resembles the zero of 1940. (Note my hesitation in asserting that it is the zero.) It is centered exactly where the zero would have been in 1940, relative to the rehubbed four. That isn't enough evidence to state that this is what the mint did, but it suggests that more study needs to be devoted to this date. There are far more rehubbed "T: Philadelphia coins in 1941 than Denver or San Francisco coins. The easiest explanation is that the Philadelphia Mint made what they believed would be enough dies for Denver and San Francisco early in the die preparation cycle and shipped those dies to the respective branch mints. Philadelphia also made sufficient dies for its own use to start the year, knowing they could always make more dies during the year. It was during the year that the "Ts" broke, and only after that the mint's "fix-it" was needed. Just my speculation here.

In 1949, San Francisco requested additional 1949-dated one cent dies. Monthly mintage figures released to the ANA and printed in The Numismatist show a several month gap in San Francisco cent production while that mint struck foreign coinage, followed by a brief resumption of coining cents, with a mintage around 850,000. I believe that those coins were struck with the later-supplied dies, but am not aware of any documents that could confirm this. What is known now is that Philadelphia took three dies with an initial 1949 hubbing and did the second hubbing with a 1948 hub, apparently with the eight ground off. It makes no sense why this would have occurred earlier in the year, if a 1949-dated hub still existed. There is speculation that San Francisco's request came after Philadelphia destroyed the 1949-dated hub or that the 1949 hub failed or was damaged before the second hubbing. As with the 194[0]/1941 hubbings, the final product was a 194/1949 die. Three versions are known, the 1949-S DDO-001, -002, and -003 coins. It would make sense why the mint did this in 1949 if the mint previously had done it in 1941, with no major concerns being expressed by anyone.

The 1943-S/1942 Lincoln Cent may also be intentionally doubled, but that discussion is a much bigger discussion and needs to involve the DDO overdates from both World Wars.

Just a couple thoughts as I pondered this issue.
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jbuck's Avatar
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 10/01/2025  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would you happen to have photos for these intentional rehubbings?

VERY INTERESTING!
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 Posted 10/01/2025  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many of the 1941 rehubbed "T" with doubled four coins are listed in the Cherry Picker's Guide, Variety Vista, Copper Coins (search for 1941 Philadelphia and DDO), and the Wexler site with various numbering. Not all are listed on all of the sites, and many of the Wexler site listings for 1941 are apparently in the process of being updated with new or better photos. Here are a few of the examples where the doubled second "T" and lightly doubled four are in the photos:
1941 FS-102, DDO-002, 1-DO-002, WDDO-002
1941 DDO-007, 1-DO-035
1941 DDO-009
1941 DDO-012
1941 DDO-021
1941 DDO-026

All three of the 1949-S Doubled dies are listed in the Cherry Picker's Guide, Variety Vista, Copper Coins (search for 1949-S and DDO), and the Wexler site with confusingly different but similar numbering. They are:
1949-S FS-101, DDO-001, 1-DO-003, WDDO-002
1949-S DDO-002, 1-DO-002, WDDO-001
1949-S DDO-003, 1-DO-001, WDDO-003

After retiring, I was talked into going to three estate sales with bags of cents. I misbehaved, and bought many of the bags. Then I spent months sorting the first few dozen of the bags by date and mint. On a positive note, many of these bags were pulled from circulation in the 1960s, based on the names of the long-gone banks on several of the bags and the condition of the coins. Now, I'm going through multiple coffee cans filled with single dates to search for varieties. I've been going through far too many 1941 Philadelphia cents since May. (So much for "retirement.")
Edited by fortcollins
10/01/2025 6:32 pm
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 Posted 10/01/2025  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
THANK YOU!
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 Posted 10/01/2025  6:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I come up for air, I'll post some of the coins I've found. I can safely say there are at least 25 unlisted minor 1941 DDOs and at least three that may be fairly significant. I'm holding off sending any of them in until the Wexler site is updated for 1941, because many of them may already be listed there.
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 Posted 10/02/2025  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dough101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for sharing this information, food for thought. I agree with coin collectors' fair improvements, and some transparency is needed.

Current Situation: Minor Doubled Dies Coins.
Current Issue: Minor doubled dies coins are undervalued/being perceived as "not a true doubled die". And some big resources are not recognizing these minor double dies and consider them as "worthless"?
Currently, "The mint says," Subtle imperfections on circulating quality coins are 'inherent' in the coin-making process.

So, I am thinking of subtle imperfections and visible flaws; these minor deviations should also be recognized as added value. On the other hand, "intentionally" doubled dies coins are much more complex. If a coin doubled die was done intentionally, how can we call this an error?"

1.) Desire Improvement Plan: A.) Establish a standard official tolerance chart for double dies coins. Like they did on coin Weight Tolerance. Thank you, coin community.

So far, I have gone through several thousand Lincoln cents. This is my therapy.







Minor-Doubled-Dies:-Why-More-From-Philadelphia-Than-Denver?
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 Posted 10/02/2025  2:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A.) Establish a standard official tolerance chart for double dies coins. Like they did on coin Weight Tolerance.


That is an interesting idea. I am having difficulty understanding how a Doubled Die degree of minority/majority could be quantified for such a chart!

If some one would like to attempt an example, I would like to see it!
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 Posted 10/02/2025  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dough101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First, we have to consider that there are barriers to improvements. But I am not discouraging added value improvements. And should not allow other questionable practices to stop you from making improvements.

For example, coin grading companies have their own grading and opinions on coin values, etc. And some of their things of doing can be unfair and biased.

For instance, the same coin can be graded multiple times. This style of practice itself is complex. Because of this nature, it can potentially discourage current collectors and the future coin-collecting industry.

Coin/currency grading companies are not regulated and have the power to manipulate the value of our currency collection and create their own standard of doing things. This practice can potentially be a barrier to improvements.

These areas of concern should get the attention/address first, because they hold the last word.

Therefore, progress is needed, and the coin community can contribute added value improvements. Happy hunting and collecting. Thank you, coin community.
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