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KurtS
Pillar Of The Community
5317 Posts |
 Posted 04/05/2009 12:58 am
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Could anyone describe the commotion at today's coin show in Santa Clara? Upon entering the hall, I saw police but really didn't get the full story outside of a few snippets from my dealer friends. However, as time wore on, I did sense a few dealers were on edge, and here's where I unwittingly became drawn into today's events.
The story begins when I visited a dealer please use the real url. who shall remain nameless please use the real url. to browse his inventory of Mexican coins. Here are the full details because they are critical to this story. It's somewhat long, but hopefully to the point.
This dealer takes two stacks of Mexican coins from his case (avg. value $15 each), and hands me one stack at the time, which I then inspect in loupe with both hands in plain view…and the dealer standing just 3ft away. When I finish one stack, I exchange it for another. I'm very methodical when buying, only inspecting one coin from a stack at a time, always keeping inventory in full view. After spending perhaps 10 min. with this dealer, I hand him the last stack and thank him for his time. The whole time, this dealer was standing in front of me, watching me (or so I thought).
Ten minutes later, while at another dealer's table way across the hall, I was confronted by the dealer, who explained that his stack of coins I gave back counted up short (11 vs. 12), and asked if I could explain why? But, as he did not count these coins in front of me, I was at a loss to explain the discrepancy. So I simply asked him if he saw me do anything wrong? No answer from him, so in order to put him at ease, I proceeded to empty my wallet and every pocket on my person. However, this did not seem to put him at ease at all and he said something like "I don't want to insult you…you look like an honest guy, but then again the professionals look that way", casting another suspicious glance toward me. 
Honestly, I started to get a little ticked off at this point, and wanted this conversation to end because I could not see satisfying a guy who didn't think he miscounted (and he couldn't name the missing coin). Apparently, he didn't consider that a pro might not waste his time to steal a $15 coin? During the day, I handled coins worth several magnitudes more than that one which mysteriously....did not disappear from dealer's tables.  Obviously dealers need to protect their own interests, and with that in mind, may I offer a few suggestions to those who might read this forum:
• If you're going to count stacks of coins, count them (out loud) when you hand them to the customer, and then count them when they're returned. Simple as that please use the real url. like they do at banks.
• Protect yourself, meaning do whatever you need to feel secure. Set things for your own peace of mind, and don't expect customers to "fill the gaps" by their own conduct, as they cannot possibly secure your own inventory.
• If you feel you must confront a customer on something, it's helpful to come across with something tangible to resolve, rather than a vague suspicion that can neither be proven nor disproven (since we know the pros work "magic").
• Have you ever considered providing a feedback survey for your customers? Many businesses do it, whereby simply asking good questions you'll gain important insights into collector's needs while also serving as positive marketing. In my business, I've found that small contests entice people to fill out surveys.
On the "other side of the coin", there's much that collectors can do to uphold their end, such as:
• Don't give a dealer cause for worry. If you're looking at coins, keep them in full sight at all time. I may be a bit of a stickler, but if I need to get something out of my pocket…I put the coins down, stand up and remove my wallet, etc. I try to keep my hands visible at all times. I also don't bring bags which dealers might need to watch.
• If you can, try to look out for anyone suspicious around dealer's tables.
• Don't mix coins that you previously bought/own with coins you want to buy. Keep the dealer's coins in a distinct pile within their sight until they are paid for. I've even seen collectors wander away from tables with coins they don't yet own.
• Some dealers don't like to haggle on the price please use the real url. they'll let you know and respect that.
I may be stating the obvious here, but today's events had me wondering.
If you got this far, thanks for reading. 
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wheezydog
Pillar Of The Community
USA
2457 Posts |
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KurtS
Pillar Of The Community
5317 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 02:13 am
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1. That dealer should probably have counted them again, and if still short, looked on the floor where he dropped it behind his table, before coming over to you.
Right--a more likely scenario than Penn & Teller visiting his table for a mere $15. This is where counting out loud would have solved everything, as he dealt them over.
2. If this horrible thing that happened to you happens again. Ask him to join you and security quietly in the restroom and bet him a stack of Mexican coins he's wrong. If he's right, he can have you arrested and dragged through the coin show in handcuffs.
There will be no "next time", because he walked away still suspicious of me--it would be a liability to do business with such a careless person. And I never worried about prosecution--because there was no evidence. At least that's how it should work.
3. I'm sure you are a most honest person, but next time if you visit him, look at his gold coins instead and make him sweat that out, then repeat suggestion number 2.
LOL, but nope--not going there.
4. Did you happen to see my 1916 D at this table? Sounds like a good logical place for it to show up.
Hmm...sometimes suspicious people act out of knowing themselves. In this case, I'll give him some slack because there were several thefts today. I check the 1916-Ds that I saw...no luck, I hope it turns up somewhere.
Glad you survived that, now tell us what good stuff you have to report about the rest of the show. 
I found my second 1998-S LMC proof close AM. 
Several European overdate coins (pics later)
A nice group of IHCs for a friend in Australia--some undergraded!
One of the scarcer Canada large cents
A really wild repunched date coin from Colombia
And more cool stuff!
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latman100
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
823 Posts |
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KurtS
Pillar Of The Community
5317 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 04:07 am
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Sean,
Wouldn't that be ironic. I can only guess his neighbor watched his table.
Then again, apparently he can get robbed blind while standing there.
Hey it was fun--and we struck again!
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Tim Stroud
Pillar Of The Community
United States
599 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 07:45 am
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I have only been to one show in my life. But whether it be a show , a dealer or an auction, I have one rule I have always used when handling potential purchases. 3 at a time! No more than that. So did you ever find out why the Cops were there?
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dreamstones
Valued Member
United States
255 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 07:46 am
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KurtS,
Thanks for the great info and simple procedures to keep everyone safe and comfortable. As a person who is just getting back into collecting, I have only been to one show and it was very chaotic. These simple tips will help me do what is right and will obviously help me find which dealers are careful and less likely to cause or have problems.
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wheezydog
Pillar Of The Community
USA
2457 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 11:12 am
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Kurt, all my comments were of course, just a little bit of a poke at the dealer that probably needs some sort of medication for paranoia. The wisest thing is not to go there again as you said.
Thinking back I have had several distasteful encounters with certain dealers and they do the circuit. It's like some kind of circus around here.
Usual same dealers used to set up in Nesquehoning then Hazelton, you see them again in South Williamsport, Wilkes-Barre then Scranton then State College and York and Lancaster. I used to make all the shows.
I It has been a pretty long time since I went to a show, but I do recall walking right by those tables, eyes straight and making a seat at the next one to examine and purchase coins.
All that dealer did was lose a good customer, and probably the others are aware of his problems.
Him making that fuss over you, was not a reflection on you. Sounds like you stayed pretty cool over it even on the spot like that.
Dealers are responsible for what goes on at their table, and that's as far as it goes.
I would complain to president of the coin club that sponsored the show about him because if they get complaints that he acted this way to others, then maybe they won't send him a contract next time around. Coin shows should be fun not confrontational. Hey and thanks for looking at 1916 D's.
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just carl
Pillar Of The Community
USA
4112 Posts |
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KurtS
Pillar Of The Community
5317 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 12:28 pm
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WD,
Agreed--the situation was almost comical in retrospect. However, since I deal with many of these dealers on a regular basis I don't want any unwarranted rumors going around. I have posted this to another forum frequented by a couple of dealers from that show--just so they know exactly what happened. To my way of thinking, there's nothing more valuable than one's reputation.
Carl--I know that many venues are tougher than Santa Clara, and that's partly my point. While many dealers run their tables very professionally, a few have gotten careless and sloppy. To be even-handed here, I suppose this dealer thought he was being a hero by catching another thief--but what he did shows he needs to improve his own procedures--and not alienate customers. What may have worked in a sleepy town a decade ago might not fly in a big city. When collectors step up to the security challenge, dealers need to follow suit.
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snowman
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1587 Posts |
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vermontensium
Pillar Of The Community
USA
3899 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 8:08 pm
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Quote:
Don't give a dealer cause for worry. If you're looking at coins, keep them in full sight at all time. I may be a bit of a stickler, but if I need to get something out of my pocket…I put the coins down, stand up and remove my wallet, etc. I try to keep my hands visible at all times. I also don't bring bags which dealers might need to watch.
I know a fair amount of dealers at this particular show and they know me. They frequent Long Beach as well. Those I don't know, I mirror what you do. I keep my loupe in my pocket and always say out loud so the dealer can hear me, "Let me get my loupe out of my pocket" prior to inspecting any coin. Some dealers who have never met me feel pretty comfortable having me pull the coins I want out from their case. I kindly tell them, "Can you pull them out for me". I just don't feel comfortable reaching my hand in some dealers case.
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I'm sure you are a most honest person, but next time if you visit him, look at his gold coins instead and make him sweat that out, then repeat suggestion number 2
I got a better one. Don't go back to that dealer. He sounds like an idiot. Probably knows everything too. I've had my share of these dealers. They still frequent this show and I walk past their table like they are not even there.
Kurt, sorry I could not make this show. I was ready to board a plane when I received an emergency phone call regarding my dad. I'll be at the next one for sure
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xshift
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1749 Posts |
Posted 04/05/2009 8:23 pm
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Wow, Kurt, sounds you had quite the day! Accused of theft (well, nearly), had to rifle through your OWN pockets, and didn't even put a bug in the man's ear for his gall.. you have more patience than most I know  LOL glad you got some great buys though! Where's the pics of what you did eventually purchase?!
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3. I'm sure you are a most honest person, but next time if you visit him, look at his gold coins instead and make him sweat that out, then repeat suggestion number 2. LOL, but nope--not going there.
Oh please, tell me which one he is, and allow me 
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KurtS
Pillar Of The Community
5317 Posts |
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just carl
Pillar Of The Community
USA
4112 Posts |
Posted 04/06/2009 4:13 pm
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In spite of all the mostly true comments about the poor manners and judgement of that dealer, there may well be some reasons for this. If he is just a transient dealer from some other area he may well not know anyone at that show. If he was ever at some of the coin shows in Illinois, he probably has been indoctrinated into numerous stories of crime. Then too, he may have had some coins stolen recently making him extreamely cautious. Or he may have heard of how many individuals have been robbed before, during and/or after a coin show. Many stories float around about someone being followed after a coin show. Same with gun shows, knife shows and almost any show where there is a lot of cash being transacted.
I know this is basically no excuse for what might be just poor manners, poor judgement, poor client/customer relations, put there may well be a, good to him, reason.
Not long ago at a flea market here a coin dealer had an entire tray run off. He couldn't leave his tables so the crook just got away. His attitude was miserable after that and eventually, he never came back.
Then too he may have just had an argument with his wife and wanted to take it out on someone that wouldn't poison him.
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BadThad
Pillar Of The Community
USA
4353 Posts |
Posted 04/08/2009 6:38 pm
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As I posted on the other forum, this is just down right embarrassing. Even though we have not met in person, we've had dealings, email chat and I've read most of your posts here....you are a man of absolute integrity. I would trust you with the keys to my house Kurt. I'm really sorry this has happened to you.
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