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swamperbob
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1292 Posts |
 Posted 08/26/2009 7:49 pm
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Today I got an on line catalog from a well respected firm in Great Britain. One coin really got my attention. It is a very RARE Mexican 8R from 1864 struck at Alamos. The estimate for the coin is listed as 450 to 550 Pounds.
Here is the coin followed by the auction description.
698
Mexico Cap & Ray Alamos AR 8 Reales 1864 A PG, KM# 377, Elizondo #182, rare, VF, some Chinese chopmarks.
£450 - 550
I see only one real problem here - anyone care to guess what it is?
By the way, before you guess - the coin is REAL but there is a problem.
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echizento
Pillar Of The Community
USA
3684 Posts |
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swamperbob
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted 08/26/2009 9:21 pm
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I just finished the Mexican Cap and Ray section of the auction and there are 18 total coins in this class with estimates from 200 to 1000 pounds.
I have written to the company involved. The error is serious.
echizento - You are right it is cleaned - thay all are but that is not what is wrong here.
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Myst
Valued Member
USA
121 Posts |
Posted 08/26/2009 9:28 pm
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I don't know anything about these coins so I'm just gonna take a guess.. they have it listed wrong? Not the right mint or something?
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Archraz
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1760 Posts |
Posted 08/26/2009 9:31 pm
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Hmmm, I this coin does look REAL, but not like the real type from Alamos. IN fact, the Eagle and style of the Cap & Rays looks more like the type from Zacatecas or Mexico city. My guess is that this is a real coin with altered mint mark and assayer's initials.
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swamperbob
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted 08/26/2009 9:39 pm
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Archraz - Correct
This coin was not made in the 1860's it uses a Standardized Die pair that was introduced in ALL branch mints in 1887. It is very distinctive and there are Dragon's Teeth (an anti-counterfeiting device) under the cap between the two central lower rays.
The coin is a real 8R ALTERED. It is a bullion item and anyone that believes it is real needs to get the book "Resplandores" by Dunigan and Parker to see what the original types looked like.
Coins like this and the simple fact that they appear in Auction Catalogs with nice sounding descriptions are the reason people need to KNOW with total certainty what they are buying.
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Archraz
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1760 Posts |
Posted 08/26/2009 9:57 pm
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Ah, I had a feeling, Swamperbob. So when did dragon teeth become part of the design of the 8s from Mexico city, Zacatecas, Guadalajara, which used the standardized type before 1887? I am just wondering since I do own an 1877M which certainly has the teeth.
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hhbkiddo
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
651 Posts |
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jfransch
Valued Member
USA
375 Posts |
Posted 08/27/2009 11:58 pm
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Bob, check out lots 666, 669, 670, and 672 in the same auction. All altered coins made to appear as very rare (unheard of) date/assayer coins. This is a sham of a mockery of a sham the way they are marketing these fakes which they claim came from an old time collection from the orient that contained rare coins unseen on the market for years. Yeah right.
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Archraz
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1760 Posts |
Posted 08/28/2009 12:25 am
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jfransch- Wow, that's just nuts! It appears that either this action house is not that familiar with Cap & Rays 8's or they truly did get this from an old collection and presumed that they therefore must be real. Everybody: "knowledge is power."
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Edited by Archraz - 08/28/2009 12:26 am |
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jfransch
Valued Member
USA
375 Posts |
Posted 08/28/2009 01:03 am
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The 4 lots I referred to are all Bust 8 reales but are all altered to appear to be unique rare coins. Mostly date/assayer combinations but my favorite is a 1790 Carlos IIII with the bust of Carlos IIII. All the 1790 dated Mo Bust 8 reales still had the bust of Carlos III.
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swamperbob
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted 08/28/2009 9:47 pm
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The auction house has replied. They asked for a detailed analysis of each coin I suspected so I sent in 18 that I was 100% positive were forgeries. I gave detailed reasons for each. They do seem VERY concerned that they have egg on their face. The lot is consigned by a party they trusted. So I guess I have thrown them a real monkey wrench. I warned them that there were others that were highly suspect even among the more common dates.
Archraz The dragon's teeth appeared at different times at different facilities. The first to use them was Mexico City in 1867. The first BRANCH mint was Oaxaca in 1881. The others fell in line rapidly and by the end of 1887 all branches were using them.
hhbkiddo The auction house is in Great Britain and jfransch has hit the nail on the head. These people are genuinely trustworthy in my opinion and I have dealt with them on numerous occasions. I am waiting for a reply to my detailed letter on the Cap and Ray coins before proceeding.
jfransch I was sure in most of the cases you cited that the coins were forgeries, HOWEVER, my area of expertise is really in the Cap and Ray series. I consider myself an expert there BUT I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THE PORTRAIT series. I did intend to pass along my "suspects" listing next after I hear about the first group. I wonder how large the group was and if there are examples in other countries?????
The 666 coin had a very odd mouth and I even wondered if it was a counterfeit (Numismatic Fraud) but the dark area at the FM and the obvious damage to the left crown made me suspect a crude alteration.
I have listed an additional 25 Bust and Pillar 8Rs I suspected of being forgeries as well.
I believe it would be best for them to cancel this auction or at least totally withdraw all coins from that one consignor.
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jfransch
Valued Member
USA
375 Posts |
Posted 08/29/2009 01:40 am
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I think the 666 coin is a blatantly fake coin. When I was scanning the auction catalogue and just looking I picked it out as a fake before reading the description. The portrait is wrong and the reverse just made the hair on neck stand up. I believe the auction house did not know these are problem coins, and possibly the collector consigning them truely thought he had some unique one of a kind coins. The problem here as mentioned by swamperbob earlier is that if these coins sell as "real" coins and then get pedigreed to this auction house, they gain a "quasi respectability" that will put a future buyers at ease when they change hands again, and again, and again and future collectors stand to be burned when the coins are turned out as fakes.
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swamperbob
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted 09/01/2009 10:52 am
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After three letters back and forth with the auction house here is their last reply:
Thank you for the information regarding these coins, we have been in contact with Richard Ponterio and I am asking him to look at the bust dollars and pillar dollars. I hope you can understand that from our perspective we do not handle many of these coins, and often on genuine ones there are anomalies and slightly crude details, probably why it is an area full of danger of forgeries. We will not take any bids on the coins you have flagged as spurious, other than under-bids from those who perhaps are interested in the coins as forgeries in themselves. For example Lot 715 has a reserve of only £80. If you would be interested in that coin at that level feel free to bid. I do not know the situation regarding the vendor, whether he has tried to deceive us. Richard Ponterio knew exactly who the person was and we didn't tell him.
I think we have good results here. IN fact as good as can be expected. They have taken me at my word on the 18 Cap and Ray coins and they are checking the suspects. Richard Ponterio is going to look at all of the Portrait and Pillar coins as a cross check. He is a specialist in Mexican and an expert used by ANACS to verify tougher coins. The fact that Mr. Ponterio knew the owner without being told could mean this collection has been on the market before. I has asked to be informed of the findings.
Regarding the value of counterfeit coins (for anyone interested in an "underbid") - there are different approaches to value of counterfeits - but as a long time collector, I place minimal value on Numismatic frauds such as these. Copies of rarities made recently, by casting, striking or alteration are worth, in my opinion, just a few dollars over melt. But some collectors do buy them as "fillers". I can understand that if they are in the $6 range but not when the reach hundreds or thousands of dollars.
Be cautious - the statement made by the auction house is a good summary of the situation all collectors face;
Quote:
it is an area full of danger of forgeries
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Jaobler
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1947 Posts |
Posted 09/01/2009 2:43 pm
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Outstanding work Swamperbob, you are truly a Pillar of our forum community and have just performed a great service for world coin collectors everywhere. Thanks for posting this saga, and please keep fighting the good fight!
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Archraz
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1760 Posts |
Posted 09/01/2009 3:00 pm
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Bravo, Swamberbob, bravo. You truly have done something great for the numismatic world, and you have proven yourself as an authority by being able to drastically alter the outcome of a major world auction.
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