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PF70 or MS70 worth the premiums?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  09:49 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add USArmyParatrooper to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

I'm putting this in the Modern US Coins forum because these grades apply almost exclusively to newer coins.

Why are people so willing to pay many multiples for a slab that says "MS70"? I'm willing to bet if you send 100 Liberty Walkers to NGC or PCGS, a few will come back as MS or PF 70's. But if you crack them out and resend them the coins that receive the "perfect" grade will change.

How much can you really tell the differnce between a 69 and 70? How many people would be willing to crack open a MS70 slab and stick the coin in their Dansco?

I am and will continue to be a defender of TPG companies. As someone who frequently hunts for higher end coins on eBay - they provide a valuable service. But for people willing to pay such sharp premiums for MS70 labels IMO they really are buying the slab and not the coin.

What are your thoughts?

Valued Member
United States
278 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  09:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rustyboy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I totally agree. The pages in all the coin mags are just packed with ads for First Strikes, Early Releases, etc. I usually skip them. The premium for the highest grade for registry purposes to me is ridiculous, as you or I could never tell the difference between a 68 and a 70.
Valued Member
United States
419 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  10:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add soldier4Christ to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
70's are mainly for ppl who want to have the best registry set.
Rest in Peace
United States
3039 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  11:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add numismo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As it is unfortunately in all aspects of our lives, it's all about the Benjamins. Look at the headline stories in the coin publications. Most of them are about 6 and 7 figure coins that really have no meaning for the majority of collectors. I've ranted and raved for a few years on the forums and letters to the editor (when they are printed) about how ridiculous the MS 69 & 70 grades are. When the grading system was devised the 70 designation was utopia-the perfect coin-unheard of. Now they are commonplace. Modern minting techniques should produce "gems" as the norm. As for bullion coins, they are just that-pieces of precious metal that have no historic significance. So what if they are MS 5000 or whatever the label says. Having them slabbed is a joke. The people at the bottom of the slabbed bullion pyramid are going to get burned. Of course the TPGs are raking it in. There's probably some grading to order going on also.
The registry set stuff is for the very tiny percentage of collectors (if they indeed are that and not speculators) that can afford them. I know I can't.
Valued Member
United States
220 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  1:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dollarcoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Numismo: Based on your statement, does it mean that it is not wise to collect PCGS certified American silver eagles? Also, I guess it also applies to the world silver bullion coins, such as China panda and lunar series and Canada lunar series? I plan to buy a British Britannia silver coin with a cost of $35. I guess if I want to sell it to a coin dealer, I will receive the silver spot price, right?

I purposely bought a PR69DCAM and a PR68DCAM American silver eagle to find out the differences between them. It appears to me that they look like the same (I am a new coin collector).
Pillar of the Community
United States
507 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  1:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 3stooges to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aside from the registry set specialists, the whole -70 thing is a big scam. Telemarketers and cable TV types sell them to to the unwary for inflated prices.
Rest in Peace
United States
3039 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  2:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add numismo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
dollarcoins, I can't give you any advice. All I did with my post is let off some steam and give my personal opinion on things. As in all things, if you likeit, get it.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4143 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  2:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would not seek out a coin just for it's perfect grade MS/PF 70. But if I wanted a coin and one was graded 70 and one was graded 69, but were close in price... I would buy the 70 grade. I think the reason the prices are crazy high on the top grade coins is that some people for what ever reason are paying those prices, if they stop paying the high prices then those coins will have a correction in value. The problem is that some of those high grade coins are not really rare in numbers, and just because TPG's might have a low number of coins that have graded 70 for that type of coin but that does not mean there are not a lot more of the same type coin out there that could be graded 70 and have not been sent in. The question should be why would someone want to spend such a premium for a common coin with a high grade. But if that is what someone else wants to do then .. why not. As far as that goes if it was me having the MS70 coin to sell .. I would not mind getting as much as I could get for it .. It is always different line of thought if you are the one buying or the one selling.

For me it is very hard to tell difference in uncirculated coins that have been slabbed with only one grade apart not just 69 vs 70. I mean like between a 66 vs 67 etc. Also I have seen MS64 morgans that look better than MS65's. Buy the coin .. not the grade/slab...
Valued Member
United States
258 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2009  8:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 925dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Personally I believe it is an ego thing. As I mentioned before a friend of mine in the coin business keeps any coins graded by pcgs or NGC at 70 as his retirement. They command the big dollars and as the saying goes, if you've got it, flaunt it. My other coin dealing friend has told me "You show me any coin graded a perfect 70 and I will find a flaw in it". In a nutshell the slabbing companies are making a lot of money giving their professional opinions on condition which for the most part is so subjective it is not funny.

Anyway here is a website that describes the various stages of mint state and proof coins from 60-70. Hope this helps explain some things. Sincerely, John Leckrone
http://www.us-coin-values-advisor.c...g-coins.html
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United States
17149 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2009  12:44 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many current issues (Eagles of all types, etc.) show TPG Populations where a significant percentage of those graded were MS/PF70. Case in point: PCGS has graded 6500 Mint State 2009 Gold Double Eagles. 3900 (60%) of those are MS70.

They may be nice, but they aren't scarce.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2533 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2009  10:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Gothic Florin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cha-Ching! What do you do once all the best older coins out there have been graded and your business model needs to change? Why, you invent registry sets and convince suckers to buy overgraded and overpriced coins so that you can continue your business model into perpetuity. It's interesting as SuperDave pointed out - the number of MS 70 double eagles. CLCT (PCGS NASDAQ ticker) recently restablished their crazy dividend to give their stock a 12% yield. Of course, the executives of the company are aggressively buying the stock since they know that their business model works since they have created demand for these MS 70 pieces.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5726 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2009  12:52 am  Show Profile Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm willing to bet if you send 100 Liberty Walkers to NGC or PCGS, a few will come back as MS or PF 70's.


I'm confused by this statement. Are you speaking about Walking Liberty halves or ASE? Walker halves will not grade 70 ever at any legitimate grading service. Modern silver eagles grade 70 all the time.

I've never gotten into the modern 70 craze but many have and there is a significant market for these coins. The premiums can be ridiculous but if that's what they like, it's their money.
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14452 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2009  07:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with the statements about its all about the registry sets. When the TPG's started these registry sets I don't think they realized how much influence it was going to have on the market (or maybe they did) but it was the best thing they could have done for their business and creating hype about having the best registry set because humans are competitive in nature and who doesn't want to have the best set of all time and be remembered for that even long after you are gone like the Jack Lee of the Morgan series, people will know his name for generations to come even though he is no longer with us on this earth because I think it will be very hard to beat his registry set unless they have the same coins he had in his set
Pillar of the Community
United States
1121 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2009  12:22 am  Show Profile Check neversuited1's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add neversuited1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes.
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United States
76 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2009  5:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Breed59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is no perfect coin. I'm sure there are Flaws in the 70 but the flaws are fewer then in the 69. By the same token why not buy a 68 I"m usre most here can't tell the difference. Then again why not just purchase a 67 and on and on you get the idea
Pillar of the Community
United States
3588 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2009  12:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Indian1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is a big diff. between ms68 and ms70
Regardless of the coin. ms70 is indeed supposed to be a perfect coin.
problem I have is the magnification used in grading. There used to be a set standard of 4X. now I hear about it is the graders choice to use what they please. 6,8 even 10. I still feel that anacs has been the most consistent/conservative grader. sad that pcgs/ngc's of the same grade bring more $ and technically the final grade of those 2 TPG's is actually lower. oh well, whatever the market states goes
i guess. I think a standard has to be reset for all. I do not even know if they use the old point system anymore when grading coins. the
make or break was not just the condition but the eye appeal. of course that is dependent on ea. individual graders taste.
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