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Manufacturers Initials On Spade Guinea ?

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D
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
859 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2012  6:36 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Does any one recognize these initials on this spade guinea? They look like S & T. I have found they used the proper legend as on the genuine guineas, how ever the wheated-edge is different. I have not been able to find any others so far with the date 1800.

The only reference I have found to the year 1800 is the following:

"Following the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland in 1800, the king's titles changed, and an Order in Council of 5 November 1800 directed the Master of the Mint to prepare a new coinage, but although designs were prepared, the production of guineas was not authorised."

Size is 24mm, weight is 3.6 grams, any help on this guinea is appreciated...









It Ain't Much Fun When The Rabbit Has The Gun..
Edited by D
02/03/2012 6:39 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
583 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2012  12:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add turtleoverhead to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is not a Guinea, it looks like some brass gaming token.
Valued Member
Turkey
64 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2012  5:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add apeka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a casino token but at the same time it's imitation of the original gold guinea. So a good news and the bad news for you. :)
Valued Member
United States
318 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2012  5:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cajunlady0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WOW.......... this is one elaborate "casino token"! I would never have even guessed it to be one.

You know, they should not be allowed to make tokens like these. I take it that this coin looks real close to the real thing. It is almost like counterfeiting is they are that close.

Did you buy this token, D? How did you come about having it? Just curious.

Pillar Of The Community
Canada
859 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2012  6:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
apeka, thanks for the input...

Cajunlady0, yes I bought it (under $7.00) for a research project as some of these can be challenging and very entertaining and rewarding if one finds out the proper history.

It appears that I have worded my question incorrectly as I am not asking what this is, only if anyone knows who the initials S & T are for?

So far I have been able to find out the following information online:

"There was an earlier version of these spade guinea counters/tokens from about 1788 while the actual gold spade guinea was still being struck. They used the same inscription as on the genuine guineas; M.B.F.ET.H.REX.F.D.B.ET.L.D.S.R.I.A.T.ET.E. for Magnae Britanniae, Franciae et Hibernise Rex, Fidei Defensor, Brusviciensis et Lunenburgensis Dux, Sacri Romani Imperil Archi-Thesaurus et Elector, which can be translated as - King of Great Brittain, France and Ireland, Defender of the faith. Duke of Brunswick and Luneberg. Grand Treasurer and Elector of the Holy Roman Empire.

To avoid counterfeit laws these had different types of edges and some had the manufacturers initials below the bust, W A & co (Wilmore / Alston & Co.) for example. They are of finer quality than the later victorian counters."

Some of these can be scarce to rare depending on who and how famous the maker is.

Maybe one day I will find who or what S & T is...
It Ain't Much Fun When The Rabbit Has The Gun..
Edited by D
02/11/2012 6:15 pm
Valued Member
United States
318 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2012  6:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cajunlady0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those initials look like S V T to me. Could be S you T. It does not look like a "&" to me. But, since I know nothing about this, don't rely on what I am seeing.

Thanks for the history of these coins! Very interesting.
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2605 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2012  9:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lady, these things can fool only people unfamiliar with British coinage. Those who are around circulating guineas or any other KG3 coins would see right away that the effigy is way off. Or (like in this case) the edge design. Although there's plenty of varieties, those counters were quite popular in 1800's. Some have very official looking portrait, some have accurate legend (on at least one side), some have Gibberish, some have an advertisement. I have a few myself, you can find them at a very modest price. I'll try to locate them and post some pics (not in this thread).

As for the initials, I rather agree with the ampersand than "V", though backwards. But I have no idea what they represent.
New Member
United Kingdom
1 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2014  1:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tokoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi D.

The initials on your counter stand for (George)Simcox & Timmins. Buckle & toy maker, Birmingham England, active from 1791. Your imitation guinea / counter was likely to have been struck c1800. No spade guineas struck in 1800.

Best wishes, tokoin.
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
1388 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2014  6:06 pm  Show Profile Check alganbagerap's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add alganbagerap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PM sent
I want to own more medals than a four star general. Give generously
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
859 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2014  12:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks tokoin...appreciate the info as it's nice to finally have the maker..
It Ain't Much Fun When The Rabbit Has The Gun..
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