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1970 S Lincoln - Repunched date or doubled die?

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phazon
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 Posted 02/21/2012  01:03 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add phazon to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Am wondering if this is a doulbe die or a repunched date cause it looks like there is a 7 ontop of another 7 maybe need to zoom into to see.



*** Edited by Staff to clarify topic title. Titles are important! ***

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 Posted 02/21/2012  01:20 am  Show Profile Check coop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is it similiar to this one?
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
I can't see anything on your coin. A closer shot would help to see what you can see?
Richard S. Cooper

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 Posted 02/21/2012  06:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a worn die from here.
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 Posted 02/21/2012  10:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like there is some mark between the 7 and 0 and it goes above both digits too. Would need a closer look to see what it is.
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 Posted 02/21/2012  11:18 am  Show Profile Check biokemist6's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is no possibility of a repunched date since it was never punched in the first place, the date is part of the hub design.
ANA R-3151318
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 Posted 02/21/2012  1:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This site says the full date wasn't part of the hub until the mid 1980s:
http://www.bestcoin.com/OverDate-Error-Coins.htm

I don't think it is a RPD though, since it looks like something else. Not sure what, without a close up.
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 Posted 02/21/2012  1:53 pm  Show Profile Check biokemist6's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you read it wrong- it says nothing about the hub, only the galvano-

Quote:
From about 1909 to the mid-1980s, the first two digits of the date were part of the Galvano, with the second two digits being punched into the master die. Currently, the Galvano contains all four digits.


RPDs are simply not possible on any modern 20th/21st century coin series because the full date is part of the hub design, the date is already in place when all working dies are created.

ANA R-3151318
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 Posted 02/21/2012  3:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it is on the galvano, wouldn't it be on the hub then?

And the 20th century starts in 1900 not 1909, so when was the date first used on hubs? And when all 4 digits were used on the hub? Any references or web sites?

I don't know why the mint keeps this such a secret. Some one needs to write a detailed book on it, that is up to date and not vaguely referencing years.
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 Posted 02/21/2012  3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bio is correct..


Quote:
And the 20th century starts in 1900 not 1909


Actually the 20 Century started in 1901. When we count we start with one NOT zero..... .
Stay brown and hail the Boognish.
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 Posted 02/21/2012  10:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I let that one really get under my skin back when everyone was getting all excited about the new millennium a year early - it didn't start in 2000. It started in 2001.

I explain it like this:

If I gave you ten peanuts one at a time and had you count them as I gave them to you (to make sure I was giving you the right number of peanuts), you wouldn't start counting them at zero and end at nine just so the eleventh peanut I gave you would be number ten.

Same thing with the years. Decades, centuries, and millennia all END on years ending in zero, and BEGIN in years ending in one.

Just like when I finish giving you your peanuts, your count ends in ZERO and began with ONE.

Now, go enjoy your peanuts.
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 Posted 02/22/2012  3:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know this is off topic, but sorry, I have to chime in.

Well, I'm a computer engineer and if you know mathematics (being an engineer you take a ton of calculus and math), when using numbers they are zero based.

I know when you go back in time, all the way to year 1 and then to year BC 1, there is no zero. Well, guess what? They messed up, because they weren't a mathematician. Hence the reason why people start with 1 and not zero for years.

It can get really complex, but interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number

Just like we use decimal numbers, AKA base 10. Which means numbers 0-9 and not 1-10. Hence bases start at zero and not one. Counting can start at one, but not zero, since why would you count from zero, which means nothing? And since 2000 is not zero, you can start the century at 2000.

Just like centuries. The 20th century is 1900-1999.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century

Therefore the 21st century starts at 2000.

I know Wikipedia isn't the definitive answer and anyone can hack it, but it is all that is online to such a large extreme and almost always it is correct. That's why I posted examples. Otherwise it just becomes opinionated and not worth anything.
Edited by wquinn
02/22/2012 3:14 pm
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 Posted 02/22/2012  6:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry,


Quote:
The 20th century is defined as the time period running from January 1, 1901 to December 31, 2000


First line of the wiki you linked...

Also, if I hand you a peanut (thanks Chuck) then ask you how many peanuts you have, you would never say zero (unless you ate it already)!

I have no doubt you have myriad more knowledge about math than do I. But, sorry....wrong.
Stay brown and hail the Boognish.
Edited by amida17
02/22/2012 6:46 pm
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 Posted 02/23/2012  01:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add phazon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You see the comments I started from my post lol anyways that coin went in the copper pile because after relooking at it it didn't look like anything from the pic oh well got plenty more rolls to go threw.
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 Posted 02/23/2012  08:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the correction. I was looking on the right hand side at the decades, but I still don't agree with it, because it still isn't mathematically correct.

There are a few other things I can site about math and other things we do in life that aren't correct, but we still do. It is too far off topic to discuss though. I just have to figure out a way to link it to numismatics and include it.
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 Posted 02/27/2012  12:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mathematicians can argue all they want, but the centuries begin with years ending in one and end in years ending in zero. I didn't make the history, I just report it. For some reason it has only been in the past two centuries where people forgot how to count, because prior to 1901 most people knew when the centuries began and ended.

Anyhow, the initial point being that a word was left out of a post earlier that started this whole fiasco.

Someone said something about this being a possible repunched date, and someone else replied that it couldn't be a repunched date because the date was not punched in the first place. That person was absolutely correct, but someone else came along and posted something completely irrelevant about galvanos - which aren't the dies at all.

Anyway, the really correct answer (for those who need two sources in order to believe anything) is that repunched dates are impossible beginning with any series that started AFTER the beginning of the 20th century. Those series in place when the 20th century began, could still have repunched dates.

Now while the first two digits were part of the galvano until around 1980 when they stopped using galvanos, they still weren't all that went into the individual working dies. You see, there are a LOT of steps between the galvano and the working dies...

First, what causes a repunched date? Well, that's simple. A date is punched into a die, and then it's punched again. This is a throw-back to the days when the date was hand-struck into each individual die. This practice was NEVER done on a Lincoln cent die.

So...what's the galvano and how does it come into play here? Well, really it doesn't. But anyhow, a galvano is a large version of a coin, usually bronzed to make it nice and hard. It is the large version of the Janvier reduction lathe, which reduces the design onto a master hub. It's the master hub that makes the master dies. So the first two date digits were on the master hub because it was a reduced copy of the galvano. Then the master hub would be used to hub the master dies. Again, they started out without the last two digits of the date - but someone would complete the date on the master dies, then turn that around to make working hubs, which in turn made working dies. Those are what make the coins.

So you see, with ALL series STARTING within the 20th century, repunched dates and over dates are impossible because the whole date situation was taken care of WELL before the working dies were even born, and ALL repunched dates and overdates are the result of date digits being hand punched into working dies.

So there you have it.
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 Posted 02/27/2012  01:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I figured I would chime in and finish the thought before some Einstein belts out the obvious noob question about the 1942/1 dimes and the 1918/7 nickel. THOSE are called overdates, right?

Yes, they are....mistakenly. They are actually design hub doubled dies.

You see, an overdate is a repunched date with the wrong digit. Basically a hand punched date with the wrong date, an 'oh crap' moment, then a bad attempt to fix the 'oh crap' moment. The result is one messed up digit with remnants of another lurking beneath. Of course there are some documented examples of where a die was reused into the next year on purpose, but the evidence of the wrong digit on the resulting coins was definitely not on purpose.

Anyhow, the 1942/1 dimes and the 1918/7 nickels and quarters are NOT repunched or overdates because there was NO DATE PUNCH used those years. What they are is a bigger 'oh crap' moment that was never caught. Basically, they occurred pretty early in the year, and were caused by a die being hubbed with a hub dated one year, then after the die was annealed for another hubbing, they were hubbed with a hub dated another year. What's a hub again?

A hub is a positive relief bar of hard steel that basically looks just like the coins. They are placed into a machine and pressed into other bars of steel to make a negative impression so the resulting coins come out with the positive impression. Those negative thingys are called dies.

So...the doubling that occurred on the 1942/1 dimes and 1918/7 nickels happened because the entire design was the wrong one! The only thing that showed, however, was the date digit that changed between the two hubs. So you see, they are doubled dies. Doubling caused in the hubbing press. And because they are doubled dies BECAUSE the design was different on two hubs that made the die, they are called class 3 (or class III) "Design" hub doubled dies.

And that's the correct answer.
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