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1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

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 Posted 10/21/2010  1:49 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Ok I have a problem I never thought I would ever have, I can't figure out what VAM this B1 reverse is. It has the Obverse of the VAM-80 but the Reverse doesn't match in any way except for disconnected leaf. It doesn't have the die chips in the wing and die cracks is all wrong






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 Posted 10/21/2010  3:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add remmy1100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VAM-81?... 80 and 81 are very similar with the over polished ear and lettering... take a look at the P in PLURIBUS... should be able to see the difference between the 2... the reverse engraved wing matches the 81... Either you have an 80 obverse with an 81 reverse or just an 81.

BTW... I know you have a full B1 reverse set... Oz liked yours so much he went and did the same thing. Nice coin whatever it is.
Edited by remmy1100
10/21/2010 3:24 pm
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 Posted 10/21/2010  3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It appears to me to be something far more significant than 'any' of the other 'discoveries' within recent years. Shared obverse with v-80 and a new and unique B1 reverse......Quite the deal, and a very nice looking coin as well....incredible. Something worthy of the term 'discovery'. Great going Bryan.

Edited to add:
The reverse die peripheral cracks on Bryan's coin are unique, not v-81 or any other B-1 reverse. This coin is not v-80 or v-81 (or 70, 79, 82, 83, or 84).
Edited by zeewool
10/21/2010 3:39 pm
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 Posted 10/21/2010  5:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
its not a VAM-81. the chip on the cheek is just like the VAM-80 but has a whole different reverse. This is no known B1 reverse that I can find. Actually the whole Obverse is VAM-80 and its definitely not a VAM-22 (as you can see its not 8TF). This thing has Deep Mirror fields so I think this reverse die may not have lasted long as it may be a pre-VAM-80 die marriage. VAM-81 doesn't have the chip on the cheek like the VAM-80 and also doesn't have the heavy polishing around and inside the ear the VAM-80 does and that this coin exhibits

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 Posted 10/21/2010  6:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here is more pictures of the cracks that do not match any B1 reverse that I know of



























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 Posted 10/21/2010  6:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add morgans dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can only add in awe, that is one very Sweetly Struck Coin, Obv and Rev.......Beautiful mirror-like Obv, and talk about a Reverse with frosted DCAM devices........PS, What did the TPG grade the coin, MS64-66 PL DCAM ?

EDITED TO ADD; Is it possible this coin, in this "state", you are not familiar with, it would appear with all the breaks, this die was not long for the coining process, or it has been altered by trying to "repair the die"!??
Edited by morgans dad
10/21/2010 6:13 pm
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 Posted 10/21/2010  6:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What did the TPG grade the coin

64DMPL. I really really thought this was a VAM-80 at first glance and it would have been perfect for my B1 registry set because the VAM-80 is super hard to find in anything above 63(the one I have in the slot now is the only 63PL NGC has ever graded) and would be Top Pop and probably would have been for a very long time. This was a early Christmas present from a real good friend of mine and I have viewed it from afar for awhile

Quote:
EDITED TO ADD; Is it possible this coin, in this "state", you are not familiar with, it would appear with all the breaks, this die was not long for the coining process, or it has been altered by trying to "repair the die"!?

I would have thought maybe, but the die chips in the wing are not there like they should be for the VAM-80 either and there is absolutely no details missing where they should be so I think this is a totally different die marriage and just may be a new B1 Reverse that is unknown

VAM-79 has a die chip on the face as well but its in a totally different place. This Obverse has all the signs of the VAM-80 including all the polish lines in LIBERTY and around the ear and the doubled stars. I am positive its the VAM-80 Obverse, its the Reverse that stopped me in my tracks. The Reverse doesn't have the bulge (clash) at the top of the left wreath either. Besides that the cracks aren't correct for the 81 either
Edit: here are some pictures of the Obverse and you can see it clearly matches the VAM-80 except some of the cracks are missing so thats why I think this is before the regular VAM-80 was ever paired together







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 Posted 10/21/2010  7:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply




Bryan, your camera lighting in this photo indicates to me that this coin is not at even plane on either side of the crack through AMER. The same letters look very funky as well. It is my opinion that this reverse die was a very, very poorly annealed die, and probably manifested its cracks and subsequently broke up within the first few strikes. Given the consistent surfaces of obv/rev, my guess would be that this was the first pairing of the v-80 obverse. (R-8 is my guess).
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 Posted 10/21/2010  7:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It just occurred to me Bryan, that this coin sets you in a very unique position....you will be the 'only' person to own a complete set of 1878P 7TF B1 reverse coins, unless there are others (which I highly doubt) that are misattributed by TPGs and collectors.
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 Posted 10/21/2010  7:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am really thinking about posting this over at VAMworld and post a couple pictures and then post a link to this thread to see what those over there think
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 Posted 10/21/2010  7:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would like to see you submit the coin for the discovery first (this is a very 'important' coin in my opinion).

Yeah, I know the accepted and expected procedure......whatever.
Edited by zeewool
10/21/2010 7:40 pm
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 Posted 10/21/2010  7:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add morgans dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bryan, Please post it on that site, I would love to see the "remarks"..........PS, If YOU do not know what it is, We ALL know your knowledge and expertise on this coin, Being I look at you as "one" of our resident Morgan experts,especially the 1878 series, it would be more than interesting to see what "they" think of it. I have come to respect their abilities and expertise. It can't hurt to "out-source", every now and then.
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 Posted 10/21/2010  8:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have started a thread over there to try and get as many opinions as possible from as many experts as possible. I was ready to call this one a VAM-80 just from the Obverse and the disconnected leaf until SuperDave pointed out something was different so if it wasn't for him I would probably just have thrown it in the pile to send out some day for attribution without actually checking it like I should have done. I just never thought there would ever be another B1 reverse out there that wasn't already known about. here is a link to the thread over therehttp://www.vamworld.com/message/view/home/28883359 , I also linked to this thread since there is more pictures in this thread. Maybe some of them that are already members here will comment here as well

zeewool I have to say I am very impressed, I think you have been playing with us because it seems you have a better handle on this VAM thing than you have led us to believe
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 Posted 10/21/2010  8:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah right Bryan, anyway, being the 1878 expert that you are, please explain to me about the disconnected leaves thing.

In mid March 1878, in reaction to Linderman's down flow of instructions to supply the western mints with dies to start coining these new dollars, Barber complained to Pollock that great skill and experience was required to basin the dies, and that he was hesitant to place this task on the western mints that had no experience at doing this.

The generally accepted reason for the disconnected leaves is basining of the die. If basining of the die caused this, (and basining of dies causes such differing effects on subsequent years of Morgans), why then are the disconnected leaves of v-70, 79, 80, 81 and 82 identical? Basining should leave variances in the effect of work on different dies. This appears to me to be working hub related rather than working die related. Is there not a possibility that v-83 and 84 are of a different working hub than the others? Is this inconsequential, and irrelevant to anything at all, since basining has already been deemed as the culprit?

Edited to add:
Why also is only this portion of the olive stem basined away....why not some of the leaves as well as other portions of the clash ring?
Edited by zeewool
10/21/2010 8:51 pm
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 Posted 10/21/2010  11:35 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll be weighing in on this coin in the morning. Keep in mind the timeframe of all this; they went from 8TF to the C Reverse in two months. Things were a tad....busy in Philadelphia.

B1 was a hasty redesign. Wonder if the leaf stem was a weak point on the new hub?
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 Posted 10/22/2010  10:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I should really be a fortune teller, I knew that there would be one person over there that would recognize this for what it really is, (and who that person would be).
Edited by zeewool
10/22/2010 10:06 am
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