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1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

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 Posted 10/23/2010  01:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Gene, how are things going buddy?


Quote:
I think its an EDS......but that remains to be seen....




It does NOT remain to be seen....I can see it now. If the designator cannot see that as well.........well, I will leave it at that (for now).


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 Posted 10/23/2010  02:10 am  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to believe, as Brian Raines said over at VW, that VAM-80 predated VAM-22. Although there's reason to think that there might have been a certain overlap between 8TF and B1 production - remember the tremendous pressure the Mint was under to produce $2-4 million per month worth of silver dollars due to Bland-Allison - I have a difficult time believing that Bryan's new coin was other than the first usage of that die. I don't think there are any known PL VAM-22's, and Bryan himself has PL 80's with two different reverse dies.
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 Posted 10/23/2010  02:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
if this is a EDS of VAM-80 I would like to know how this

and this


Can turn to this (from 7/8Tf book)


Or how this


Can turn into this


There is allot of others all the way around the coin but seriously how in the world would what is listed as the VAM-80 be after these cracks since they are no where near the same location of the letters





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 Posted 10/23/2010  02:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know I am close to this but trying to keep an open mind also, I just don't see how this could be the same reverse die with the only thing that matches is the disconnected leaf. No other diagnostics are there, absolutely none of them
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 Posted 10/23/2010  02:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this coin predates all known examples, as I believe its an EDS,but don't take my word on it......I still have to grab my own DMPL 80 which is probably not worth mentioning... GO BRYAN.....
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 Posted 10/23/2010  02:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I added a couple more pictures around the "ONE DOLLAR" and the picture from the book in my other post. look at the crack inside the "N" in ONE for example.I just don't see how this can be a EDS of any known VAM and then turn into what its supposed to look like. I will agree the Obverse die is EDS but just cant grab ahold of the Reverse being the same die whether it be EDS or LDS, I think its just ADS (Another Die State)
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 Posted 10/23/2010  02:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this is an awesume coin............PRE----------most of what is known,
when bryan questions,.............WOW.......better grab your heart!!

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 Posted 10/23/2010  03:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
lol I was serious. Is there an explanation I haven't thought of on how it could be? This is a learning process for all of us so the more opinions we get the more knowledgeable we all will come out of this
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 Posted 10/23/2010  03:09 am  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not even sure what question you're asking. We know your new 80 has a different reverse from the old one.
The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

Catman, Gary Burke, Bigg Fredd, numismo - CCF members emeritus, now part of Heaven's Own Coin Club.

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 Posted 10/23/2010  03:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was asking because it was said this is probably a EDS of the original VAM-80 Reverse. My question was how would the progression change the cracks so much to make the ones on this coin look like the ones on the other VAM-80's. If they were anywhere near the same place I could understand a progression but since they are in places nowhere like the known reverse I was just wondering how it being a EDS could make this much difference to become the known 80 reverse. Sorry if what I said was confusing
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 Posted 10/23/2010  03:37 am  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I was asking because it was said this is probably a EDS of the original VAM-80 Reverse.


Not a chance, in my mind.
The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

Catman, Gary Burke, Bigg Fredd, numismo - CCF members emeritus, now part of Heaven's Own Coin Club.

Our members sell on eBay!
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 Posted 10/23/2010  03:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Brian, (along with that vampicker guy) is one of my favorite coin nuts. I have the greatest respect for his cherrypicking prowess, but very little indulgence for his ability to distinguish die states.....despite this, I have to agree with him on this particular v-22 thing though, and disagree with you on the time frame of the C hub. The C hub was was finished on March 25th, used to reimpress A hub dies into the 7/8TF design that same day, and the following day (March 26th), the 7/8TF dies began striking coins. The new obverse hub (used to create v-80) was completed on March 27th, and was intended to replace the high relief obverse dies used with the 8TF reverses. Since this new C hub was in existence, (and the mint was in crisis status with serviceable working dies), it is in no way inconsistent with the notion that this new obverse hub should be used to create obverse dies of proper relief to mate with whatever reverse die was on hand, be it 7TF, 7/8TF, or 8TF. I believe that Brian is correct. The state of PL and non PL surfaces on obverse/reverse on 1878P coins is what tells the tale.

Unfortunately, I do not feel that this is the key to understanding what came first and next, and after that on all 1878P coins. Those folks who take little interest in the history, the people, the process, the politics of coin issuance, have little possibility of understanding much (beyond what VAM is it and how much is it worth?).

I believe that all of these designs (A, B, C hubs and their corresponding obverses) were being used to strike coins simultaneously and (in some instances), interchangeably. It would not be rational to dispose of 8TF or 7/8TF dies when under pressure to produce 2 million coins per month, when you've already gotten off to a two week late start the first month, and what few dies you have on hand are not lasting more than a few hundred or thousand strikes prior to failure. Certainly since the top priority was to eliminate dies (through attrition) of the earliest high relief obverse hub design, it makes perfect sense to use the new low profile obverse with an 8TF reverse since all of the available 7/8TF or 7TF reverse dies may be in use in other presses.

Yes, I too believe that 7TF v-80 was struck before 8TF v-22 based not solely on PL conditions, (but other stuff as well).
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 Posted 10/23/2010  11:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did you pay LVA the extra $10 for the 'express attribution' (which includes a thorough cleaning), or did you stick with the 'standard in house handling' (includes dip only) ?
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 Posted 10/23/2010  1:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent him some extra steel wool and told him in the letter to scrub that reverse so he could be sure those cracks werent drawn on there
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 Posted 10/23/2010  1:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good thinking Bryan.....and here I thought that you had never sent one in before.
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