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1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

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 Posted 10/23/2010  2:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was so excited last night I had to take a ambien to sleep. I just made sure I handcuffed myself to the bed though so I would make sure I didn't wonder in here to the computer and make a donkey out of myself again. Created quite a problem this morning when I forgot where the key was and I had to go to the rest room pretty badly though
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 Posted 10/23/2010  2:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe a bedpan or a jar beside the bed might be in order.
Edited by zeewool
10/23/2010 2:58 pm
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 Posted 10/23/2010  3:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add morgans dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been following and lurking and sticking my head up, out of the sand a few times and see ALL these second guessing, probabilities, possibilities, etc, I would like to throw some things, already posted out there, 1, an EDS, 2, A previously unknown reverse(state),3, a possible repaired re basined die and placed back into production,4, and a new B1 Reverse.

5,Is it possible the die, from this coin was very short lived, 6, Is it possible this die is another die, from the same working hub, that does "match exactly", ( this one is according to my reasoning, highly improbable, as I believe no two dies, from the same working hub, would EVER be an "Exact" duplicate).

Did I leave any other posted opinions out?

I have very much faith in the combined efforts of this site and VW, and the very experienced knowledgeable people who have weighed in to assist in this exciting equation.
However I being probably one of the least experienced, and one of the least knowledable on this 1878 series, I have to wonder how SO MANY people, with all their accomplishments have so many differing opinions, I am going over to Mr LVA'S house, Ohio bound, and sit while He comes up, with what some undoubtably have stated, while some will be far from " One of the Founding Fathers ruling".

I also would add as Bryan has stated, this is a learning process, that the more opinions offered, the better our understanding will be "together"...PS, Bryan Thanks for the site you sent me, you have an amazing "SET"........I am very excited at the possibilities that could come from this, and what ever does, I know I have learned from this topic, This is what I was looking for years ago, the excitment, the hunt, the friends who ALL share the same passions in this arena of this hobby,To come away with a better understanding and Knowledge.......
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 Posted 10/23/2010  4:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am sure congrad's are in order!!as much as 78 Morgans have been studied its amazing to find a new VAM.....quite an accomplishment
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 Posted 10/23/2010  4:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this is my opinion as I stated before, I think this may be a die pairing that predates the known VAM-80. the reason I say this is because even though all the doubling and chips and everything else on the devices that make up the VAM-80 (and VAM-22) Obverse are present NONE of the die cracks that you can use for this Obverse are present, so that makes me think those cracks haven't started yet in the die. I looked very closely and saw absolutely no evidence of any polishing where the cracks should be to make sure this just wasn't a re-worked die and saw no evidence of this happening on the coin. at least 3 people I have had discussions with (publicly and privately) seem to think this reverse die was defective and probably shattered to pieces very early in its life so there may be very few coins with this Reverse.I tried to look up when the last B1 Reverse was found and don't know when that was. I know since I started collecting them all that has been added were different stages of the progression so the reason for all the different opinions is just everyone trying to cover the bases before they make a decision since its hard to believe there could be a unknown B1 out there this long

Edit: you add all this and then the fact that this coin was sold by a big firm like Heritage not just swapped privately between one collector to another, everyone has to ask their self how it wasn't noticed and over looked for so long
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 Posted 10/23/2010  4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It really isn't an 'opinion' kinda thing Mike. It is black and white.

Your possibilities are:

1. No, not possible.
2. No, not possible.
3. No, not possible.
4. Yes, definitely.
5. Yes, definitely.
6. No, not possible.


Quote:
I have very much faith in the combined efforts of this site and VW, and the very experienced knowledgeable people who have weighed in to assist in this exciting equation.


I'm not much on handing out false kudos. John Roberts knew what it was, so did SuperDave, and Bryan.


Quote:
you add all this and then the fact that this coin was sold by a big firm like Heritage not just swapped privately between one collector to another, everyone has to ask their self how it wasn't noticed and over looked for so long


The answer to that is that there really are only a very small handful of experts, not sites full of them.
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 Posted 10/23/2010  5:06 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The answer to that is that there really are only a very small handful of experts, not sites full of them.


VAM-80's obverse is so distinctive that there's little reason to question any further than making sire it's a B1 Reverse. In the absence of a continually-questioning nature, even the experts become complacent. How long has it been since the last "new" B1 Reverse was discovered?

Question everything.

Edit: To answer my own question - VAM-84A, by Leroy himself in 2003. And that was an existing die.
The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

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 Posted 10/23/2010  5:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
VAM-80's obverse is so distinctive that there's little reason to question any further than making sire it's a B1 Reverse.

that is exactly the situation I was in until you questioned the reverse cracks.

Quote:
VAM-84A, by Leroy himself in 2003. And that was an existing die.

I know NGC recognized this B1 Reverse when I started collecting VAM's but never called it a 84A, they just called it a LDS 84 with clashed E
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 Posted 10/23/2010  5:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
there's little reason to question any further than making sure it's a B1 Reverse.


You have got to be joking Dave.

Is there any question in your mind? There is absolutely none whatsoever in mine. To me that makes it fact. I don't need anyone to 'rule' on this to make it so in my eyes. It is a known obverse married to a previously unknown B1 reverse. Unique cracks are on a DMPL coin. What can be questionable or opinionated about that? You know exactly what this is, so does vampicker, so does Bryan, and I expect that Mr. Van Allen will as well, (and if not, I must be taking a trip in the Twilight Zone).
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 Posted 10/23/2010  5:47 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was not describing my own thinking, zeewool - I should hope you know me better than that - but musing reasons why the so-called "experts" might disparage Bryan's discovery or fail to have noticed it in their own holdings.

Expertise with VAMming has nothing to do with how many varieties you can identify on sight. It has everything to do with knowing what is and is not important. Some of the best among them, despite their intelligence and experience, miss the clearest indications because of a complacent mindset.

Question everything.
The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

Catman, Gary Burke, Bigg Fredd, numismo - CCF members emeritus, now part of Heaven's Own Coin Club.

Our members sell on eBay!
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 Posted 10/23/2010  6:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave from the pictures and stuff do you agree that this dir pairing was before the pairing that is now known as the VAM-80 or am I completely wrong in my thinking about this? The thing with it not having any Obverse cracks at all is what made me think this had to be real early in this Obverse dies life not to mention the Deep mirrors the coin has
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 Posted 10/23/2010  6:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry Dave....I got a bit carried away as I see that I am getting both defensive and possessive about this topic.

Too bad Jack hasn't replied yet. I am not surprised at the responses given so far though....nice coin, eds, lds, vam-80, etc. etc. That is why I wanted to see it go to LVA without the usual hemming and hawing. I don't question 'everything', but I do question people. Yeah, complacency is a good term for it....when you've seen it all, you lose the ability to see anything at all.
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 Posted 10/23/2010  6:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bryan, do not begin to doubt yourself on this....This is the missing link. It is the first use of the v-22/v-80 obverse.
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 Posted 10/23/2010  6:17 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Dave from the pictures and stuff do you agree that this dir pairing was before the pairing that is now known as the VAM-80 or am I completely wrong in my thinking about this?


I think so, yes, Bryan. Without microscopically examining both of your 80's and a Mint State VAM-22 in my own hands, it will remain a theory. Given the condition of the obverse of your new 80, I consider it the most likely hypothesis that it is the earliest usage of that obverse die. Indeed, given that 22 was clashed on the obverse, I'm almost inclined to think that 22 was the *last* usage of the die rather than the first.

That would be cause for contemplation regarding just which dies they were using, when. Remember, we're talking a timeframe of less than a month; it would be easy for me to believe that there was a period when three different dies from two different hubs (8TF, 7/8TF and B1) were in simultaneous production. Likely the first week of April, 1878.

They were experimenting furiously. Three different Philadelphia presses broke during the initial Morgan minting, one of them a cracked arch. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall; I'll bet a lot of unseemly language was being used on the Mint floor.
The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

Catman, Gary Burke, Bigg Fredd, numismo - CCF members emeritus, now part of Heaven's Own Coin Club.

Our members sell on eBay!
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 Posted 10/23/2010  7:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, what Dave said. Face it Bryan, this coin is going to change your entire life. You will have to get personalized plates, maybe an embroidered jacket, you will be a numismatic rock star......Just think about it....all the screaming teenage girls at the coin shows, (well....you might have to settle for grumpy old balding fat guys), country singers will write ballads about you.... the royalties to book deals, maybe a movie, or a TV sitcom......etc, etc. (I expect at least a personalized autograph for my support).
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