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1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

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 Posted 10/23/2010  7:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That is why I wanted to see it go to LVA without the usual hemming and hawing

heck I wanted to post a link to this thread on every coin forum on the net lol

Quote:
I expect at least a personalized autograph for my support

how about a 5x7 glossy? I will be sure its of the coin so you won't have to worry about some profile picture of me as that would be worthless
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 Posted 10/23/2010  8:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A 5x7 ?.......What do I have to do to rate an 8x10 glossy?....
Edited by zeewool
10/23/2010 9:32 pm
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 Posted 10/23/2010  9:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I may be able to pull that off. Now back to the coin, I was sure a couple others that have shown numismatic knowledge and interest in 1878 Morgans would have chimed in on this one but haven't heard from them for some reason. As a matter of fact one or two of them I haven't see post in awhile. They seem to be avoiding this thread like the plague
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 Posted 10/23/2010  9:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a very strong feeling that this is my fault Bryan.....I am the plague, and I am sorry.
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 Posted 10/23/2010  10:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
no absolutely not. You have been very helpful. I really appreciate your input on it and like I said you mirrored just about everything I had already heard which usually means if two or more are in agreement when they don't know it chances are they are correct. I was just saying there was a few that really have shown some interest in 1878 VAM's and was just sure they would have chimed in with some type of opinion. Maybe they are just away from a computer or something and haven't had a chance to see it or something. Either way we will know something soon hopefully, even though morgansdad may know the answer before we do if he goes to LVA's house lol
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 Posted 10/24/2010  12:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add morgans dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have also noted an absence of a few, one, Harry, I have to say, He has always been very enthusiastic, and is IMO, become very knowledgeable in VAMS, especially this series............PS, I am sure he will chime in when He can, I would think.

EDITED TO READ: I have always thought this forum was tops in many ways, I am actually very suprised that "our in house experts", Morgan series specialists, have not assisted in this equation and excitement,
Edited by morgans dad
10/24/2010 11:21 am
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 Posted 10/24/2010  1:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess since its already been sent to LVA they are just waiting to see the final verdict. I am just happy to be able to share my enthusiasm with all of you first because all of you are like my family here (especially since I now live alone) so we can all share this experience from start to finish no matter what the out come is from LVA
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 Posted 10/24/2010  1:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Operating in steatlh mode is quite predictable and reinforces my notions about certain folks. Trust me Bryan, it 'is' because of me and the long time hard feelings that some hold for the 'evil witch' of vamming. Does it bother me? I won't pretend that it doesn't, but I have decided that their actions (or lack of them) are reflections on them, not me. There probably are quite a few folks who just can't fathom the gravity of this coin.....(just another discovery coin)...heh, heh...... I do not know LVA, never had any dealings with him, probably never heard of me, so I doubt that I will be any influence in that regard. I fully expect the coin to get the recognition that it deserves. I'll reserve further cheers until a more appropriate time.
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 Posted 10/24/2010  2:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree that if LVA agrees that this is what we think it is (I do not see how in the world he cant, but stranger things have happened)this will be HUGE because this isn't just a different die stage like most other additions to the B1's have been in the past, this is a whole different pairing that was never known to exist. Not only that this Reverse die has never been used in any other pairing so this is a very unique coin right now. I really wonder how many more there are with this pairing and wonder how many may have been melted down or what ever through out the years. The VAM-80 has always been one that is harder for me to find especially in anything above MS-62. these are the questions that keep running through my mind. If anyone on here has a VAM-80 in their collection I urge you to check the reverse to see if its matches the known reverse die or if it matches this one because as SuperDave said the Obverse is unique on the 7TF Reverse and this could easily be overlooked because usually you look for the die chip on the cheek and the lines in LIBERTY on the Obverse than just turn it over to look for long nock and disconnected leaf and it gets labeled as VAM-80. So far no one on VW that has been able to check theirs have matched this one so would like everyone on here to check if possible also. I have already received one email asking if maybe this coin was for sale even before I have heard anything from LVA but needless to say I hope to be able to keep this coin in my possession for a very long time, not only because it may be my first discovery coin in a series I am passionate about but because it was a gift and I have never sold any coin that has been given to me as a gift as of yet and hope I never have to. I will sell every coin I have purchased myself before I ever start selling off coins that have been given to me. I guess its just because they mean more to me since they were a gift because it means someone thought enough about me to want to give me a gift and I hold those little things dear to my heart no matter if I am still friends with those people or not, I still know at one time they thought enough about me to give it to me
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 Posted 10/24/2010  2:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have already received one email asking if maybe this coin was for sale


That is what makes people more interesting than the coins (to me).

Have you had any offers on those red and green ties or sweaters (with the snowmen and Christmas trees on them) that you received in previous years?
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 Posted 10/24/2010  4:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Have you had any offers on those red and green ties or sweaters (with the snowmen and Christmas trees on them) that you received in previous years?

No haven't ever had any offers on any of those
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 Posted 10/24/2010  9:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bryan, nothing to do with this coin, but tell me something about the disconnected leaves thing......(other than die cracks, chips and clashes) what other differences are there between 83 & 84 and the other B1s? Is the disconnected leaves thing the only difference?

A couple more questions if you don't mind:

Are the disconnected leaves (the point of disconnect) 'identical' on the disconnected leaves varieties?

Are the stems 'identical' on the 83 & 84 where the connection is made?

The reason that I am asking this is because I think that the notion of basining to cause disconnected leaves is ridiculous, and I am rethinking this whole B1 hub thing as well, (hubbing a hub with a hub is not possible). Hubs are the relief reflection of intaglio (or a die). It takes two to tango, and no same sex marriages were possible back then. If there is no difference between the stem area on the 83-84 dies, then either the master die was touched up to incorporate the stem or there were two separate master dies used to make these B1 dies. Working hubs cannot be touched up to add relief design. If there is a difference in the stems of the 83-84, then the stems were added individually to the working dies.

Maybe everyone else had this all figured out already, but I am kinda slow, and am just now getting around to thinking about it. (That, plus this disconnected leaves thing is new to me).

I've had a fairly stressful day, and I am trying to use this coin stuff to relax and let my mind wander, but I think that I am getting confused between the 7/8TF thing and the B1. So this is not working very well for me.

How about you Dave? Surely you could help me out here?



Edited by zeewool
10/24/2010 10:32 pm
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 Posted 10/24/2010  10:33 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm gonna do little digging through my photo archives, zeewool, and see what I've got for those stems.

Keep in mind, the 7/8TF coins were just the first individual dies created by the B1 hub. Needing the design changed, and also needing to stay in production, they just ground down the periphery of existing dies (B1 had differing lettering) and re-impressed them.

I'm still (for the moment) of the belief that the Disconnected Leaves were a working hub defect, one which was pulled from service before too many dies were made from it.
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 Posted 10/24/2010  10:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will try to list some of the differences between the 83 and 84 first as I remember them. The bottom of the D in DOLLAR is broken on the VAM-84 which isn't on the 83. The star between DOLLAR and AMERICA is doubled on the 84 but isn't on the 83. Both stems are connected on the 83 and 84 but the 84 stem is doubled like where the 70-82 was disconnected was added (only way I know to explain the looks)
here is some pictures of these characteristics
84 stem

83 stem

84 star

83 star

84 D
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 Posted 10/24/2010  10:47 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, here's relevant detail from my own archives - one 83 followed by two 84's.







After seeing what I saw here, I hit Heritage for a larger sample size. The differences between the stems of 83 and 84 are obvious, and carry into all of the coins I looked at on Heritage.

You're correct, zeewool. The stems were per-die touchups.

The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

Catman, Gary Burke, Bigg Fredd, numismo - CCF members emeritus, now part of Heaven's Own Coin Club.

Our members sell on eBay!
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