Where will it all stop.

?

Gene, That makes 2 of us? Thanks.

It seems a lot of folks do not fully understand my issue with, or even my definition of, "die poop".

In the few die studies I have done, yes, I use what some would call "die poop" to differentiate between dies. This helps sort out the VAM listings, and create new VAM listings. So "die poop" can be helpful in the right situations.

My problem is when "die poop" is used to list a new VAM, or sub-VAM when it was on the VAM all along, but not listed originally. This then effectively eliminates the original VAM listing, meaning no coins will fit into the old or duplicated listing.

The crux of this is VAM pollution, that can likely NEVER be fixed. VAM listings with no coins that match. So how helpful is that?

I have refrained using examples because it could be construed that I am calling out an individual if I was to do so. However, I will highlight one example, to show what I am talking about. This is not an indictment of any one person.

Take the 1904-O VAM-18A. The base VAM-18 Die #1 is known for a dominant (and cool) die gouge at the junction of Liberty's neck and chin. This marker is all that is needed to identify this VAM. The obverse die with this gouge was only used with a single reverse die. The "die-is-the-die" is in play here.

So someone looks at the reverse, and notes three die scratches on eagle's right wing. So bingo, the VAM-18A is assigned. ALL VAM-18 Die #1 coins have these three scratches. So effectively, with the assignment of the VAM-18A based on what I would call die poop (virtually every 1904-O VAM has similar die scratches on the reverse, so this is nothing unique or new for the series), the VAM-18 Die #1 becomes obsolete. You will never find a coin that will fit into the VAM-18 Die #1.

In addition, there is no way to undo this situation. So I repeat, what good did it do?

Sure, somone got a "discovery coin" out of it. But is it really a discovery? I say "NO".

Hope this helps explain my frustration.

VFM, I can honestly state I relate to your feelings and that is Exactly my point, things seem to be getting out of hand, Well spoken!!

Bryan, That also is a very true statement, However while I agree that the people who are in the position to do so should rally to delete those "minor" differences from already known and numbered Vams. I personally have no clue as to who/how this is done, but the things you pointed out being slightly different, whether being a EDS, LDS, or ULDS coins, are along the lines exactly, of the title I posted for this thread, where will it all stop!

I do feel who other than LVA is entitled or has the authority to change the way the Vams of yesterday and the ones to follow are listed or recognized, IMO, No one.

People can suggest and recommend, but WE all know who is "The Man".......

RECALL RECALL RECALL...manufactures recall of discreptancies... YES YES and YES, but this will not happen until the year/mint involved goes under the knife....

What does this mean? People I am not "chicken little"
the MONEY that's involved has already been spent on the die poop...Big money...and TPG's attributions...TODAY die studies are being evaluated, an a small term for some vams..case by case point... and revisions are being made...Don't think the whole system is under the same scrutiny..YET IT WILL BE......our questions, My questions and THERE questions will eventually be evaluated as the studies are continually going on....ONE can not over turn the whole of the system simply because our over throw CAN NOT BE PROVEN.. much like the BUST halves which have fewer
known attrocites..die crap....ect..The Morgan series will yet take far more years as its TRULY being studied now, and revisions are being made daily...
I hate the "BUBBLE IDEA" but it will take some time for the system, which is good, and will correct itself..as more people become involved and study the series of any given year....As with Alan's study on the 02-o4's has shown...
He was able to find the commonality of many supposed vams
to related and killed listings, for they were of the same family. in fact the virtue of FAMILY, my meaning,, is that they are not new, but snapshots of the dies life...
Not being all new and different...

The cracks at STA are conclusively different, and it's visible even in the poor images provided.

I originally thought this topic was of a borderline interest level, from the input I see, I am glad to of placed the topic in the forum, for ALL to see, plenty of great opinions.......... I wanted to ask, to date how many 85's and 86's are "known", Thanks.....