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Help, Counterstamped Coins Brazil - Weight & Size Varietys?

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Kingz
Valued Member
Netherlands
459 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2012  12:52 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Kingz to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

As there are many counterfeits, some very well done and hard to differentiate from the real ones. Many coppers are found as much as 15
percent or more below the official weights, and even heavy specimens are occasionally observed.

I have a few coins of these, and some of them are off target as described above. But I was also wondering if it is possible to be a bit heavier, but not to be a counterfeit? As I will show in the pictures below..( sorry for my bad grammar, and possibly spelling )

I have put 2x 20 Reis on top of eachother, as I noticed 1 was a little bit bigger / heavier (1827, coin on bottom).



20 Reis counterstamp on 1827 R, 40 Reis = 14,9 g. (which should weigh: 14,34 g., so how can it "grow" 0,6 g. ? )
20 Reis counterstamp on 1828 R, 40 Reis = 13,02 g. (which should also weigh: 14,34 g. but ok, it can lose some weight due to wear etc.)



Also notice the bottom of the 1827 coin, it has been squeezed out or something ? Could this be PMD or was it part of the minting proces?
As I don't see it on the other coins, although it seems they try to loose the date or does it have to do with the countermark?




Sorry for the ramblings but I'm looking forward to hear some opinions, and if something is not clear enough... Just ask

Edited by Kingz
01/28/2012 12:58 pm
Valued Member
Netherlands
459 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2012  10:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Kingz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
anyone? or am I fishing too much?
Valued Member
Netherlands
459 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2012  8:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Kingz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Almost 200 views... Nobody has a clue? Or does nobody understand me

I'm wondering why or how the 20 Reis, 1827 was squeezed for lack of a betetr word
Valued Member
Brazil
117 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2013  02:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cipriani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, what could I say? These coins are great. This "R" after the year shows they were made in Rio de Janeiro. Now the reason why one is "bigger" than the other I can´t tell you with 100% sure.

I should say that´s because coin-making was imprecise, but it´s just a guess, I´m sorry.

I have a Brazilian coins catalog here and it doesn´t say anything specific about these coins.

If I find any other information, I post here.

Thanks!
Pillar Of The Community
United States
762 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2013  1:14 pm  Show Profile Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have intitially investigated these Brazilian counterfeits and have several in my world contemporary counterfeit collection. Here is the little that I do know since I don't collect legitimate Brazilian coins or for that matter South American coins (in general):

1. The coins can be underweight and this is the main reason they are counterfeit.

2. The metal alloys tested by XRF on these underweight and counterfeit numeral countermarks still register high copper alloy and are NOT brass or bronze but are of the same copper purity as the regals Cu >97-98% pure in the coin alloy. However - I am still open to the opinion that off-metals like brass or bronze may exist. I only own about (6) contemporary counterfeits (of the period) and I do not search these out ... generally.

3. What do the counterfeit countermark numerals look like? They are listed in KM. Arabic style.

4. They have little following it seems - I purchased a Choice AU/UNC 80R underweight/fake countermarked from Karl Stephens at the 2012 NYITL for $95.00. The finest I have ever seen for 80R.

BTW - On your posted pictures none of the numerals seem to be faked countermarks as listed in KM - so I guess they are all just underweight or there are other minor variations? Let me know if you come across any in BRASS? (in your opinion).

John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
04/30/2013 4:17 pm
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