| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Valued Member
Canada
269 Posts |
All of this makes it seem so easy to make counterfeit coins using modern technology.
No wonder there are so many out there!
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1429 Posts |
Nothing wrong with tungsten except when it is being used to deceive someone into thinking it is gold. Yes that is why it was used due to its similar but not exact atomic weight (a little lighter)
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
4008 Posts |
Quote:
All of this makes it seem so easy to make counterfeit coins using modern technology. Yes, it does, but it is also true that modern technology can be used to spot those fake bars. A sonic tester can spot fakes pretty quickly. From what I have read, the speed of sound in tungsten is about 50% faster than it is in gold. This can be measured by the right instrument and that should be a lot cheaper than more sophisticated gear, such as those that use x-rays. I would think that all mints have such equipment and probably most of the big dealers as well.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1429 Posts |
Yes and hopefully all are checked. I know Ron Paul would like all the gold in fort knox checked and verified.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
496 Posts |
If it was silver that diamond blade would have cut through a Lot Quicker, tungsten is much harder than silver
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
10425 Posts |
Quote:
How far off of the published coin weight are we talking? Grams? Tenths of grams? Hundredths? When do you stop thinking standard slight variations between minted coins and, "whoa!" time to contact the Secret Service?
Anything more than a 5% variance in the weight on an uncirculated coin should automatically set off alarm bells. In reality, the tolerance for most bullion products is only +/- a few grains(1 grain= 0.065 grams) since the accuracy of PM content is of the utmost importance.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1180 Posts |
Quote:
A sonic tester can spot fakes pretty quickly. From what I have read, the speed of sound in tungsten is about 50% faster than it is in gold. This can be measured by the right instrument and that should be a lot cheaper than more sophisticated gear, such as those that use x-rays. I would think that all mints have such equipment and probably most of the big dealers as well. Where's a tricorder when you need one, Ed?
If you haven't noticed by now, I don't proofread veery well and I apollogize profusely. (;>D
|
|
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Quote:
I don't buy from China but I do have a few sellers from Eastern Europe, and that could be just as bad, I suppose. Where's the best place to sell fakes? In the country the real coins were made, where buyers are experienced and prolly have genuine coins to compare them to? Or a country where they may never have seen the real McCoy, and where it "makes sense" that the seller wouldn't realize he has a valuable coin? Quote:
And yes! Tungsten HAS been used to make fake gold bars!
The fakes only have to be good enuf to get by. I forget the country, but they loaded up the treasury with genuine, tested, gold bars. Then over time, one guy with access switched gold plated STEEL bars for the real thing, until he cleaned out the vault! Not only was the weight WAY off, but a blind kid with a magnet could detect them with 100% accuracy. The weakest link is ALWAYS people.
|
|
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Quote:
If it was silver that diamond blade would have cut through a Lot Quicker, tungsten is much harder than silver
Tungsten is not used to make fake silver bars, just fake gold bars. Copper alloys tend to be used to make fake silver bars.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
601 Posts |
Quote:
Yes and I wonder if any of the altered bars accidentally get mixed in a melt. Hopefully all are weighed and assayed Melting point of Ag: 961.78°C (1763.2°F) Melting point of Au: 1064.18°C (1947.52°F) Melting point of W: 3422°C (6192°F) Unless the assayer's furnace operates above 3400°C it seems unlikely for any form of gold salted with tungsten to go undetected during melt due to the extreme differences in the melting points of both elements. While it would obviously stink to find yourself with a tungsten fake, the good news is that it may not be too costly to recover the remaining gold, maybe? I think we'd need a refining expert to tell us for sure.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1429 Posts |
Yes hopefully all is checked from weight to melting point as well as the other tests so something that doesn't belong isn't there. How do you think someone could recover the gold? Just wondering
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
601 Posts |
Quote:
How do you think someone could recover the gold? Just wondering Assuming the furnace temperature was low enough when melting a salted gold bar, the gold would literally melt from around any tungsten rods inside. At that point the rods could be plucked from the crucible. I'm not sure what method might be used to remove smaller tungsten artifacts from melted gold, though. This is all speculation on my part.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1429 Posts |
That would just separate the elements. Recovering the gold would be another problem. Who knows when the scam was done or where the removed gold is.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
601 Posts |
Quote:
That would just separate the elements. Recovering the gold would be another problem. Oooooh! You mean recovering the stolen gold from the counterfeiter. Yeah, that ship has probably sailed. If detected soon enough, it might be possible to recover something from the seller (eBay Buyer Protection and the like) and mitigate your loss. Beyond that... However, assuming I have no recourse, I want to know I can recover *something* from my bogus investment. The only question is how much an assayer would charge to give me whatever actual gold is present.
|
|
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1429 Posts |
It is just such a shame that not even PM are left alone from the underhanded. Guess they won't be as PM become more and more valuable and sought after. The worst that happened to me when purchasing was a 2 heads Kennedy and another with a 1964 Kennedy face and liberty bell reverse. At least all silver and well done!
|
|
Topic |
|
Posted 03/27/2012 07:02 am
