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Overstrike 1964D Peace Dollar by Daniel Carr

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 Posted 11/20/2010  11:08 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Maxwell41 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Just wanted to know every-one's thoughts about Daniel Carr's overstrike 1964 D Peace dollar High Grade Finish What they call a MS-68. And I went to the web site and it saying under construction for a few weeks now did they shut him down. I should have ordered one sooner. Anyway let me know what you think all thanks and have a good weekend. :-)

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 Posted 11/21/2010  11:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They do this sort of thing in China all the time. Maybe Mr Carr will do us all a favor by packing up his press and moving over there.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  12:28 pm  Show Profile Check carmykle's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the classiest cold shouldered compliments I've ever read. I just wish they'd make him stop. I still don't know why anyone would destroy a coin like that.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  2:01 pm  Show Profile Check biokemist6's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They do this sort of thing in China all the time.

Not even close to the same thing. DC uses a genuine low grade Peace dollar as a host coin so the final result is an almost exact reproduction in 90% silver with the addition of identifying die markers. He is also very up front about what he is selling. The Chinese would have low quality cartoonish engravings with 50 cents worth of white metal while selling it as a genuine silver 1964-D.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  2:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not even close to the same thing.


Why isn't it? They're both copies that violate Federal law by not having the proper markings. It's as simple as that. I mean if you want to get technical about it being "not close to the same thing" DC's is FAR worse because it's MUCH more accurate and dangerous to the collector market than the cartoons you speak about. He should be prosecuted. He's not above the law.

If the Chinese made the exact same coin with the exact same process, and sold them on eBay for 20% over melt, even saying up front that they are copies and pointing out the minute die differences but without being stamped "copy", you and the entire collector market would have a hissy fit. But because it's an American that has designed a few quarters and has a retired Mint press it's all OK? Ridiculous any way you look at it or try to justify it.
Edited by scubu
11/21/2010 2:18 pm
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 Posted 11/21/2010  4:10 pm  Show Profile Check biokemist6's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Chinese and other illegitimate counterfeiters actively work to undermine the US coin market, they couldn't care less about numismatics. DC is creating a quality product and fulfilling a demand, there is no fraud or deception involved.

Being marked "COPY" or not in accordance with the HPA is another matter entirely and IMO will require a ruling from the FTC. The 1964-D Peace dollar is in a rather unique situation- it is a coin that has most assuredly existed at one point in history but the US Mint has also declared that it destroyed all examples and none exist now. Does the HPA apply to copies for which no original numismatic items exist? The wording of the law is not clear and only the FTC will be able to determine whether it applies or not.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The Chinese and other illegitimate counterfeiters actively work to undermine the US coin market, they couldn't care less about numismatics. DC is creating a quality product and fulfilling a demand, there is no fraud or deception involved.


So the initial sale and intent is all that matters? Like I said above, if the Chinese did EXACTLY what DC has done and sold them by the bucket full on eBay you can bet the house no one would be sticking up for them. The outrage would be phenomenal and the screaming would be deafening. It's only because it's "Daniel Carr" that anyone is supportive. Replace "Daniel Carr" with "the Chinese" in this story and it's a horrific numismatic story.

Try that. Seriously. Find a news story about this anywhere on the Internet, paste the entire story into notepad. Then replace every instance of "Daniel Carr" and "Moonlight Mint" with "the Chinese" in the whole article. Read it again and tell me about the warm fuzzy feeling you get.
Edited by scubu
11/21/2010 4:36 pm
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 Posted 11/21/2010  4:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Maxwell41 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thank all the people that have posted on this Topic. As for me I'm on the fence with this I just think it's a very nice looking coin and Mr. Carr did a very nice job of what the coin could have been. And at some point D.C will stop making them and the prices will be to high for some of us as we all know how the market goes. Thanks all and have a great weekend. :-)
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 Posted 11/21/2010  7:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wheatguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with biokemist. Another difference is that DC has made minor alterations in the design in order to stop anyone from confusing the coin as legitimate.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  7:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Another difference is that DC has made minor alterations in the design in order to stop anyone from confusing the coin as legitimate.


OK, so the Chinese counterfeits with distinguishing differences in the design are OK too then? Or is it just OK because an American is doing it? Or is it the fact that DC did it on purpose that makes it OK? I'm confused as to what is different that makes it OK for DC to do it, but not the Chinese.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  8:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a problem with this coin for many reasons. First the potential for abuse is obvious. Here is an auction for a 1804 dollar (note the price is double what a DC Peace dollar is going for and the seller has already sold one of these in the past):

http://cgi.ebay.com/1804-Early-Doll...em1e5fc09943

Any collector with a ounce of knowledge knows that this coin is fake. Yet newbies still bid on it thinking that they have found a hidden gem. Similarly, many counterfeiters in China are up front that their coins are fake, but this doesn't mean that a coin purchased for $15 won't be peddled as real in a secondary market.

Second I don't like the fact that an original coin is sacrificed to make these "coins". For the record I also don't like it when coins are melted for bullion value. I know many people feel that this is silly, but I'm O.K. with that.

Finally, I don't like the future implications for this. Maybe Mr Carr chooses to make 1933 St Gaudens next. Maybe this time he chooses not to include any markers that help us determine which coins are fake. Or maybe he is less ambitious and chooses to restrike '32-D Washington Quarters from '64 originals. Why wouldn't he be allowed to do this? It was O.K. when he did this with Peace dollars...
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 Posted 11/21/2010  9:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Maxwell41 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well even if we don't like it the coins are being made and out there so let's just make the best of what we have. And Snowman how can you say that it's a copy if the coin has never been made. A lock on a door keeps a honest person honest but a thief will always be a thief with or with-out a lock. D.C is not breaking any laws as whats written. And if the law has been broken why is D.C still making these coins?
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 Posted 11/21/2010  9:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And Snowman how can you say that it's a copy if the coin has never been made.


Ummm.... there were over 300,000 of them made. The mint just *claims* none got out. There are several other claims otherwise.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  10:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wheatguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And if the law has been broken why is D.C still making these coins?




The difference is, the reason why coins like the one in snowman's link go for so much is that there 1804 Dollars that do exist. But according to official US Mint statements, all 1964 Peace dollars are gone. There are some who argue that some still exist but even the vast majority of brand new collectors know or soon find out that there are no 1964 Peace dollars, at least that are known. Debating on whether this is ethical or even legal can go on forever, but the bottom line is that a well respected designer is making these coins, and as far as I know they have been selling like hot cakes.
Edited by wheatguy
11/21/2010 10:03 pm
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 Posted 11/21/2010  10:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but the bottom line is that a well respected designer is making these coins


Completely irrelevant to the entire issue. Oh, and speak for yourself please, I have zero respect for him now and I'm not the only one that feels that way.
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 Posted 11/21/2010  10:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How about a 2009 proof silver eagle, y'all ok with it?

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