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 Replies: 17 / Views: 6,615 |
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Pillar of the Community
 Bulgaria
843 Posts |
Ok I ask him to make other pics. And what about this one? 8 REALES 1736 MEXICO 27,05gr 39mm    |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The 1736 is almost certainly a fake - and what happened to the 6 in the date? There are a few errors visible on this coin that are diagnostic of forgery. The most serious problem is one I prefer not to discuss because it is a detail that I have not seen published previously and may not be generally known to the forgers - BUT IT IS 100% conclusive in my estimation. This coin is a FAKE.
Having said that - I can now make a conclusive judgement about the 1737 shown earlier. I believe that the Shield side die used to make BOTH the 1736 and 1737 is IDENTICAL. To have that happen while technically not impossible it is certainly a SUPER rarity. But since one of the two coins is a FAKE - that leads to the absolute conclusion that the other one is also a FAKE.
I suspect that one host coin was used to make the image that created BOTH Shield dies. If these coins are pressure cast (as I now believe is the case): then it is possible if not a given, that the two shield impressions are different molds (which accounts for minor differences) because MOLDS used in this method are all made from a single transfer image. That is why on many of the high output fakes you can find what appear to be die varieties. One impression is used to make a dozen or more molds that are cast simultaneously. The result is 12 die (mold) varieties made from ONE master impression.
To establish this fact, compare the fine details - e.g. the Lion's tail in the lower left quadrant. The shape of the Fleur-de-lis especially the upper left side one. Note the blob at top center of the inner shield. How about the details of the Pomegranate - etc etc.
Viewed as a PAIR the 1736 and 1737 coins make me almost positive they are BOTH FAKE.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Bob, I am sending you an email regarding these 2 coins
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
BTW, how much does the guy want for those ? (it's a often good diagnostic as well)
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Pillar of the Community
Bulgaria
843 Posts |
275$ for 8 reales 1736 and the other seller wants 250$ for 8 reales 1737
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
The above two pillar dollars are both modern counterfeit.
They are easily detected through their edges as shown in the above picture, no need to look at the obverse and reverse of the coin :-)
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Pillar of the Community
Bulgaria
843 Posts |
I am not spain collector and I just started :)
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Well, you started with the most counterfeit spanish coins ... ;)
The price tells it all as well, cheap for a coin of this quality (if genuine), but expensive for a modern fake forgery (which should be not much more than 15 usd if made with low grade silver)
Before buying those, carefully read posts made here about forgeries, and learn on how to recognize them.
The edge is indeed a clear place to check (and usually the worse part on forgeries).
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Valued Member
United States
326 Posts |
Quote:
I am not spain collector and I just started :)
You have picked a coin that is highly counterfeited and sometimes they are done so well that even the experienced collectors are not sure if a certain coin is real or not. Sometimes I see threads here asking if a coin is real or not and wonder if the forger is posting his fake coin so he can improve his forgery techniques.  |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Oh, forgot something on this one ... the direction of the dentils :)
Larryh86GT : what you are saying about forgers already happened here - mods usually watch for this closely. But some may manage to get their coins checked ... that's why everything is not said (particularly from specialists like Swamperbob)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Pandesalapi - You said: Quote:
They are easily detected through their edges as shown in the above picture You must have great eyesight - the image was too blurred for me to tell with absolute certainty.  But then again I am getting older and they say the eyes are the first to go.  - That is a blind guy in this case. But after many years of doing authentications I have learned a couple things. 1. NO ONE is 100% correct from photos alone. Over the past 10 years, I have made several thousand purchases of counterfeit coins on ebay (and by email) guided only by photographs. Of these about 1 in perhaps 200 turns out to be a genuine coin that fooled me. Good percentage of accuracy BUT NOT PERFECT. When I learned about coin authentication one of my mentors was a very old coin dealer who had been in the business since the 1930's. He had "test" counterfeit coins that drove me up a wall until I personally saw his diagnostics. But he also had real coins that were deceptive too. To be POSITIVE requires familiarity with the coin and the methods of production of BOTH real and fakes. We often forget that at certain times even mints change methods that impart an "incorrect" look to real coins. 2. I would suggest that you NEVER make a final conclusion unless you have personally examined the variety under discussion or have the coin in hand. Many if not most of the fakes I spot on ebay are coins I have examined in person before. But when I have never seen an example I try to say something like I did here "I am almost positive" they are fake. I am actually 99.99% sure in this case but you never know. I know that may sound a bit lawyer-ish at times but I have been fooled before.  If I have made a positive conclusion about a coin in the past based only on photos - I SHOULD NOT HAVE done so.
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
Quote:
You must have great eyesight - the image was too blurred for me to tell with absolute certainty. But then again I am getting older and they say the eyes are the first to go. - That is a blind guy in this case.
Yes Bob, at my age, I can still read a montblanc's serial nos with bare eyes  and also maybe because of the nature of my work these past few decades in terms of forms, figures etc makes me easier to visualize any gray areas. In this case about the edge's picture may it be a little blurred, I am really certain about my stand on the coin. Reason for this are my blunders and experiences in buying counterfeits in which all of their edges do have the same features as the above specimen. |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
Quote:
Here is one with an edge you should like as well ;) You've hit the target. It's the same coin and the same left hand. The picture of the edge is now clear as shown on ebay  |
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Valued Member
United States
326 Posts |
Another Mattski? Which was my thought when I first read this thread.
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First Page
Posted 11/29/2011 11:04 pm
