A Warning To Buyers

austrokiwi





I have discovered that the TPG does NOT assume the risk in all cases. When a coin in a slab is verified as a counterfeit or if there is another problem that requires a refund, the TPG contacts the last seller and works their way back until they recover the money from someone they can bully. The TPG's rarely pay out of their own pocket for their errors.

The problem with this method becomes apparent when you run a business. If a dealer submits a coin the TPG makes a presumption that the coin is Genuine and Unaltered. They certify the grade and confirm the other two facts. The guarantee is still by the dealer.

Therefore when someone makes a claim for a coin that was doctored (cleaned) and then submitted for grading by the PREVIOUS owner of the shop - say 8 years ago, guess whose door the TPG knocks on. The current owner and they are expected to pay the TPG for the error. It happened at the place where I help part time. It resulted in one payment and an immediate name change.

That is why the guarantee is only so so.

A second example: NGC holders a coin for a private collector who dies. Subsequently the executor places the coin with a reputable Auction House for sale. The coin sells to another collector for $1,000. A few months later the coin is recognized as a worthless forgery.

NGC is contacted about a refund. But the owner that had the coin certified is dead. So does NGC pay - heck no they threaten the Auction House? and want them to make good for the $1,000.

The private collector wants to stay anonymous and not to cause problems for the Auction House that sold it last so he withdraws the claim.

NGC revokes the certification for the coin but does not have possession of the coin.

Then the coin is re-sold. There is NO GUARANTEE at all. If the next buyer tries to get the guarantee paid - he gets NOTHING.

Moral - always check the certification number to see if it is actually VALID. A slab is really not much of a guarantee at all.

That is a lot of trust.

I don't often find counterfeits on the European auction sites at what I feel are reasonable prices. They seem far higher. Even on common stuff.

My coffee hasn't cut in this morning: Your saying that when you see counterfeits for sale in Europe that they are much more expensive than in the US?


I was thinking about the TPGs more. If I was a US dealer, every time I sent a coin into a TPG I would send with it a standard letter stating that The coin is being sent for grading and Authentication. That way if at a later date the TPG comes knocking "saying you sold a fake" pay up! I would reply " You were asked to authenticate the coin you authenticated it you pay. Swamperbob I guess you will now tell me they have that covered in their terms and conditions!

austrokiwi The TPG's cover the issue of a "special" request which is what you propose by EXCLUDING all claims for services except as stated in their own boilerplate agreement.

Remember a clerk reads your letter and no matter what you try to get them to do - they do only what their agreement claims to do - which is NOTHING. They give a "subjective" opinion on the grade of the coin BUT qualify that by saying that in the long run it is only an OPINION.

You basically pay up front for NOTHING except for aggravation later.

There is no doubt at all that the NGC actually encapsulated the counterfeit coin I discussed. They simply lacked the expertise to do the job well. Although I had never seen a coin of the specific type in the holder I was able to detect it was a forgery by the way it was made and a simple impossible physical aspect I saw on the coin's surface.

The current owner of the shop where I help out part time with authentications applied to NGC for employment a few years ago. But after visiting and interviewing he rejected the job offer. His impression was that they were interested only in fast turn around times and competence with grading US coins focusing on the MS grades. He felt that it was underpaid and high pressure. He did not like the prospects.

Spoken like a fellow collector ... however, the TPG business is really about supporting investors/speculators. No one can really tell the difference between MS65 and MS66, but if a TPG gives it a 66 it is immediately be 'worth' a boatload more money. They are only interested in the MS grades because that's where probably 75% of their business is.

I still prefer the grading I learned as a kid.

Three categories

Almost Uncirculated

Uncirculated

Brilliant Uncirculated

And the difference in price was insignificant! I still do not see a real difference in value based on wear.

If you really want to look for something that actually sets a coin apart from its peers look for a perfect strike. In the older screw press strikes - they are 100 times rarer than a coin with no post strike wear. The screw press strikes were positioned by hand so eccentric strikes are common - it always amuses me to see someone call an eccentric strike a "mint error." The same applies to double struck originals, cracked dies, clashed dies and lapped dies. In the older manual presses the chances of getting the perfect strike are extremely remote.

Most "perfect" strikes will be produced on power presses with mechanized feeders. For instance my favorite series the Cap and Ray Eight-reales a perfect strike dated before 1830 is EXTREMELY rare. But after say 1880 they become rather common as power presses came on line.

But I prefer a nice toned VF or EF for collecting purposes. They have a story to tell. Mint State means the coin went into a vault and sat there 200 years - BORING.

But for NGC and the other TPG's strike is secondary. Too bad.