Fake Coins, Laws, & Lawyers

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Since I believed it was authentic thats all that matters as far as the law is concerned right? "" Under this Statute, it is also a federal crime to sell at a premium an ordinary Presidential $1 coin that one knows has been altered so it looks like an error coin to someone who believes it to be a real error coin"" Since I believed it was real there was a violation of this law..

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Please stop trying to be a lawyer. To prove fraud, you have to prove intent. What you believe is absolutely irrelevant. But hey, as I said if you want to get a lawyer, go right ahead and try.

Clueless, please forgive me if I sound anything but concerned about your loss. After getting bite a number of times with purchases on ebay, I have learned to survive there. That post was full of warning signs but not necessarily obvious and will be a great lesson for you, unfortunately an expensive one. I know you will not go there again. However, this is what makes ebay such a great opportunity but one fraught with chance. If there is any doubt in your mind, do not buy, your instinct will most always be right.
Jim

ok here is the full email he sent to me... Doesn't he just seem like a fraudster? I betcha he has a new account already and will pull the same scam if he isn't stopped and he just feeds off guys who just assume its a done deal and don't try to defend themselves as I am.
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Dear Robert, I will make you an offer but before you accept it read this and decide, is your request fair?

I made reasonable effort to establish that this item could be fake and altered... I made no claim to authenticity. I did not manufacture the coin. I purchased it same as you. There has to be intent to defraud for there to be a violation of the law, my intent was not to defraud. I stated that this item was fake/altered many times before just to prevent this discussion we are having now... When you purchased this item you knew there was a very good possiblity that the coin was altered, I told you so in the auction... Now you are upset that your "gamble" didn't work out like you hoped. You wouldn't go and sue Las-Vegas for losing money in a poker match when you made a gamble... Same applies here, we had an unknown and unverified coin. We sold it as such and even took it step further and told you it was fake and altered as we had no way to know for sure. You gambled because you thought and hoped maybe you will get lucky and it will be real. You made a gamble and you knew full well that returns would not be accepted. You decided that the risk was worth it. Now if this coin is real, would you be here saying thanks for the good deal, I'll pay you double? No you wouldn't. You are trying to minimize loss by shoving the loss on someone else, and trying to bully them. Is that right? I think not. The responsibility is on you for making the purchase and disregarding my warning.
"I have had people ask that if this is fake can they return it for a refund.... Sorry, but I couldn't agree to that, I have already stated it as fake and altered. If this was an authentic coin and verified as such the price tag would be significantly higher. I am being open and honest about this and declare this an altered coin just to avoid such headaches of people wanting to return it. Keep that in mind as you bid as this is a fake and altered coin not a genuine error and bid accordingly as to what an altered coin would be worth to you, thank you."

I told you in plain english that this item could be fake and made no claim to authenticity. I even went as far to say it was altered just prevent claims of false advertising or fraud. There is no intent to defraud when the seller tells you in plain english that the item is or could be a fake. I told you to bid accordingly as what an altered coin would be worth. I warned potential buyers no less than 5 times with clear verbage.

1.) "I declare this a altered coin it is not fraudulent as it was minted by the US MINT, it is a real coin, I'm just attributing it a altered"

2.) "I DECLARE THIS A NOVELTY ITEM. INCLUDED IN THIS AUCTION IS 1 ALTERED COIN AS PICTURED BELOW"

3.) " I don't expect this to sell, (after all whos gonna bid on a fake & altered coin! "

4.) "No returns or refunds,due to the nature and fluctuations of price of collectable and novelty items, (not to mention I've already told you its been altered, so that can't be a good reason for returning it"

5.) "I have had people ask that if this is fake can they return it for a refund.... Sorry, but I couldn't agree to that, I have already stated it as fake and altered. If this was an authentic coin and verified as such the price tag would be significantly higher. I am being open and honest about this and declare this an altered coin just to avoid such headaches of people wanting to return it. Keep that in mind as you bid as this is a fake and altered coin not a genuine error and bid accordingly as to what an altered coin would be worth to you, thank you."

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I will make a one time offer to you.

Offer #1 Return the coins and I will purchase them back from you and refund full price, minus ebay fees, listing & auction fees, and paypal fees that are non-refundable and I will even eat the cost of shipping. Once the coins are received you will be paid via a refund with paypal. Send them via express mail insured with a return receipt. With this you can verify that the items were received here and should I not pay you then it would be a real case of fraud and you can file a fraud claim with your bank/credit card and they will do a reversal and repay you and you can include the FBI as well as it would be a federal postal abuse crime.

Offer #2 Keep the coins and I will do a price adjustment refund of $1,000.00 which would match the offer submitted by another user. By accepting this offer you agree the sale is is final and you keep the fake/altered coins with no further action to be taken by either party.

You know this is a fair and reasonable offer from a person who has no intent to defraud, a crook would not try to be reasonable and fair as I am here. Give it some thought. Is your request reasonable based on the facts and the disclosures made in the auction?

Keena

Ok.. I guss I have pounded this subject in to the floor . I hopes you can understand that its a big deal to me even though it is a good lauph for others. But seriously if you have ideas I would like to here them.

If he is a crook, he wouldn't have bothered to reply. Sorry but it seemed that not knowing anything about such errors led to your misfortune. Always do research before buying!

Just some thoughts

There are many ebay sellers who are known to sell altered coins.

ebay itself has a difficult time keeping these sellers out. they toss them and they show up under other names.

If you hire a lawyer, you are out additional dollars and proving intent to defraud will be very difficult.

The Federal Prosecutor and the Secret Service (responsible for counterfeiting) unless they can obtain proof that the seller is the one who altered and sold the coin and it was more than one coin, will not do more than the equivalent of sending him to his room for a time out.

Does this mean that we all can alter a coin or two. No but then who has not at some time in their life cleaned a coin written on or torn a banknote, drilled a hole in a coin - all federal violations.

If you are looking for your money back the best option you might have was posted above when it was suggested you contact your credit card company. or you take him up on his $400.00 refund charge.

Best of luck in your efforts to recover some of your money.
And as others have said Welcome to the forum

Welcome, Clueless !!!

I'm afraid I agree with most of the folks who have already responded: The seller is in NO WAY responsible for your bidding actions in this case because you were flat-out TOLD that the coin was altered. If you wanted to spend $2500 for an altered coin, well, that was your decision to make, and the seller owes you nothing. The seller did NOT misrepresent that coin in that auction, and you have absolutely no recourse. You made a mistake, now live with it. I'm stunned that the seller is even giving you the time of day, much less an offer to buy the thing back or "adjust" the price.

Buyers like you who throw "the law" around as a threat like you have should be banned from ebay. Your threats are downright childish, and any competent lawyer will tell you that you have no legal recourse. Go hire one and find out for yourself.

This thread has been locked because it is our opinion that this is turning pretty ugly.

Sorry, but I am going to pull rank as Forum Mom and post my thoughts here. I haven't been able to be on CC all weekend or I would have responded long before now.

First of all, as an ebay seller, I have listed a couple of items that I was unsure of and no amount of research could verify. For example, I listed a worn Buffalo nickel that appeared to be a possible clipped planchet error. Due to the amount of wear on the coin, I did not feel that it could be verified whether it was an error or an altered coin. I stated this fact in the auction. No amount of magnification helped to determine this condition 100%. Does this make me fraudulent? No, it does not. Sometimes, we simply do not know. In my opinion, this coin was represented as truthfully as possible.

Throughout the auction, this seller posted the questions and answers and continued to update with as much information as possible. This also leads me to believe that this seller was doing his/her best to represent this coin as accurately as possible.

Quite frankly, this seller is handling this situation very well and I firmly believe that, not only is this seller not a fraud, I think he/she was attempting to get into coin sales on ebay and would probably have turned out to be one of the "good guys." It is my opinion that the seller closed his own membership (still would show up as NARU'd and can look as if ebay did it). I think this deal has soured the seller on continuing to sell (and possibly purchase) on ebay, which I think is sad.

In spite of the fact that you have no legal recourse at all since this purchase is going to be seen as one that you made with your eyes wide open, this person is attempting to do the honorable thing and try to please you and be fair anyway. Since they are no longer registered on ebay, he/she could keep all of the money and just ignore your emails. The fact that he/she is attempting to be as fair as possible is something that should be recognized.

Clueless, none of us likes to feel that we made a costly mistake, but the fact is that we all do at different points in our lives. Please reconsider your position here. I firmly believe that this individual in no way attempted to con you or anyone else. He/she is trying to correct the situation to the best of his/her ability. Please recognize that there is good in many people and this person deserves to be treated fairly.

Just my opinion as an ebay seller and buyer.