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1795 Flowing Hair And 1795 Draped Bust Dollars Authenticity?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2013  12:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
I'm seeing the same spurious "spurs" on the stars referenced in thread on the DBD replica, as well as other reproduced contact marks they don't mention. Looks to be a very skillful die transfer copy.
Edited by philadelphian
04/15/2013 12:07 am
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2013  08:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
These almost look like copies of the fakes.

Those two contact marks on the neckare from what I call the Vampire hub. The counterfeiter made up an undated draped bust hub, probably from a genuine coin, and then used it to create many dies which were then given different dates. I have seen every date from 1795 to 1804 from this same Vampire hub showing those "fang punctures" on the neck. They used to be very prevalent but the hub must have worn out because I've been seeing less and less of them. (There are other defects common to this hub as well that show up on all those different dated fakes.)
Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2013  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
This fake must predate the creation of that generic dateless hub, though, as all the features, both obverse and reverse, are consistent only with the 1795 die variety B-14 BB-51. Even the position of the date numerals are correct for that variety, certainly when compared with the only other 1795 Draped Bust small eagle variety, B-15 B-52.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2013  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fenton to your friends list
Both look like fakes. My guess is someone made a mold from an original circulated coin and used it to cast these reproductions.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2013  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
These are probably too nice-looking to be cast. More likely struck from a die.
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United States
1432 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2013  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffrose to your friends list

Quote:
Any chance of a view of the edge lettering? And


Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 04/16/2013  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
Actually it probably dates from the SAME time as the creation of the hub. The hub is created from a genuine coin (obviously a 95 B-14) so the hub originally had the 1795 on it. Create some 1795 dies, then remove the date and start creating undated dies.

And when you will look at the other dated draped bust fakes from this Vampire hub you will find that they also show the same diagnostic features as the 1795 B-14 except for the date. So somewhere out there is a single genuine 95 B-14 dollar with those contact marks on the neck, and thousands of fake draped bust dollars with them.
New Member
Mexico
5 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2013  08:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add markosjal to your friends list
If you look at the Reverse and note the word UNITED ....3/4 of the way up the I there is also a mark that makes it consistent with the Chinese fake being sold here
www.tradekey.com/product-free/1796-Us-Dollar-Silver-Coins-213526.html
select the image then you can select the reverse
Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2013  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
There are plenty of markers that connect those two coins, but what about your bazaar coin? Can you see them there, or show us with a better picture?
https://goccf.com/t/154626
Edited by philadelphian
07/29/2013 08:25 am
Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2013  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stringboogie to your friends list
the details are scary close but they all seem to have the same phony glow
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United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2013  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list
Both fakes. Buy certified only. Too many of these out there.
swcoin.ecrater.com
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Canada
2805 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2013  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nalaberong to your friends list
So will a coin that's struck worn (i.e. the dies are made to look worn and lack detail) look much different than a coin that was struck with details and then worn naturally? How can you tell the difference?
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861 Posts
 Posted 08/07/2013  02:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add g048406 to your friends list
Here's a recent 1795 COUNTERFEIT off-center Bust Dollar that just sold on ebay for $4,405.00:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1795-Draped...251286881488

Note the two "fang" marks on the neck and pimpling all over the obverse. Also note the ignorant buyer left this crook positive feedback. The seller has since disappeared from ebay after making his killing on this poor unsuspecting chump.
Pillar of the Community
861 Posts
 Posted 08/08/2013  8:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add g048406 to your friends list
UPDATE:
ebay has removed the counterfeit 1795 off-centered Bust Dollar that sold for $4,405.00. I had notified the poor buyer that he had purchased a counterfeit. He asked me what he could do. I told him that since it has been more than 45 days since the purchase, he would need to contact ebay for instructions. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he was sol. Live and learn.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 08/08/2013  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
Well, the truth will set you free. Can't help feeling that we dropped the ball on this one though. We certainly could have gotten the listing taken down if we spotted it it a timely fashion.
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