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Opinion: Has This Indian Cent Been Cleaned Or Dipped?

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 Posted 02/04/2014  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list
Me tooooo
John1
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 Posted 02/04/2014  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mgillette to your friends list
Yep, I agree, looks real nice.
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 Posted 02/04/2014  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add woodcr to your friends list
I don't think it has been cleaned
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 Posted 02/04/2014  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buffalo Bill to your friends list
Why do you think it might have been cleaned?
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 Posted 02/04/2014  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Duncan_Doenitz to your friends list
Many years ago, about 1973 in Minneapolis, I was at a major coin show.

At one booth, there was an absolutely stunning Indian Head cent, the most pristine and beautiful cent you could hope to see, with a fresh natural brown color and with this incredible frosted appearance.

Then there were a few more, at other booths. Quite stunning, but a bit surprising.

And then there was one seller, with display after display of hundreds of them! And not quite as prominently displayed, further behind the guy, were what would normally be "average" middle grade Indian Heads, but those too, everything the seller offered, had the same brown but frosted appearance. By then it was clear, these were all somehow processed to achieve the look, somewhat like Buffalo nickels treated to reveal their dates, but with a much more sophisticated touch.

Taken individually, there was no real clue that the cents were enhanced, but seen together, there could be no other conclusion; this seller or someone close to him had established a specialized little enhancement business. And every dealer who saw the display had to know what was up, but most of them couldn't help wanting at least a few to sell. They were simply that good.

So I learned that we can all be fooled, so faced with a coin that really looks good, all we can say is "it really looks good".

After all, the best counterfeits are the ones that haven't been detected!

In another field of truth-finding, DNA has proved the experts wrong to a very serious extent.

In the same way that DNA technology has recently solved (or unsolved or reopened) legal cases, an easy way to detect when a metal surface was "born" could some day allow us to date the surface of a coin. Perhaps a better example would be in the way we can now date inks and papers and paints, revealing forged paintings and documents.

This particular cent is in such excellent condition, with no dings or wear and especially no marks on the rim, so it probably was never handled in a way that would cause it to need cleaning, which suggests that this specimen has led a charmed life. It REALLY looks superb, no faults.

Don't get me wrong, if I was in the market to find a coin like that, I'd attempt to buy it, but don't have the confidence to pass judgment on it, but that's just me, because I've been fooled. Here it is 40 years later and I'm still rattled.

-Duncan

PS: Do any of the "community elders" remember those Indian Heads or other copper coins with that special frosted appearance? Were they acid etched and chemically toned?
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 Posted 02/04/2014  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mikey07nj to your friends list
Looks fine. The good thing is you've owned it for 40 years. Cleaning coins has become an art form over the last 20 years and today it's really tough to tell its as subjective and maybe more so than grading. But I worked for the year 2012 traveling with the biggest hotel buying operation in the country and learned more in that 12 months than I did in 30 plus years. Coins that were cleaned back then were harshly cleaned and the things they used would most likely showed up by now. It's a copper nickel coin so any copper cleaner or other chums from back then 80 to 90% chance the coin would have inappropriate toning. Just my opinion but I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy that as original if I knew you.
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 Posted 02/05/2014  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Duncan_Doenitz to your friends list
That one's not mine.

But yesterday I discovered that the 1909-S VDB sitting in my collection for over 40 years is a fake, so that's another reason my confidence is a bit shaken. A good 1909-S with the VDB added, so quite a good fake for its day, and a bit expensive to make.

-Duncan
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 Posted 02/05/2014  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list
Thanks so much everyone. When I first looked at the pictures, something about the color made me think it might be artificial, so I wanted to ask here where there are more knowledgeable collectors than I. And love your comments Duncan- what a great idea for a disruptive technology.

Best,

Ed
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 Posted 02/05/2014  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
I have to urge you not to take any of these answers as gospel. You posted scans, not photos, and no conclusion whatsoever about a coin's surface originality can be drawn from a scan.
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 Posted 02/05/2014  4:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list
Duly noted Dave- just seeking opinions. :-)
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 Posted 02/05/2014  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BluegrassRiver to your friends list
"Looks Fine to me" - CoinCollector2012

It would not grade anywhere this low. :)

Hey Mikey07nj can I private email you about your year in traveling the coin buying circuit? I would love to do that some day just for all the stuff I could see!
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 Posted 02/06/2014  11:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
Not sure why you'ld suspect cleaning. So many details are clear with no dirt, fingerprints, scratches, etc. Looks really OK to me. Yes many experts have been fooled but if the so called experts get fooled, that too could make the fooled coins OK. Who'ld know?
Regardless, I like that coin.
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 Posted 02/06/2014  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noD to your friends list
Me too.
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 Posted 02/07/2014  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rachums107 to your friends list
Looks ok even though its just scans
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 Posted 02/08/2014  07:08 am  Show Profile   Check robbudo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add robbudo to your friends list
Not cleaned - but I believe I see dirt/corrosion on the reverse by NE of ONE and T of CENT.
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