| Author |
 Replies: 22 / Views: 3,226 |
Page 2 of 2
|
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I knew that I had to study those before even thinking about buying them :P
(or at least, check it out with Ralf before :D )
Nice lesson, again !
Edited by MathieuMa
03/24/2014 2:01 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Mat ... the learning curving in the War of Independence is HUGE ... so far I have been lucky ... so far <VVBG>.
There is no real RELIABLE reference book and many of the pieces in the auction catalouges are fakes, incomplete descriptions by inept auction catalougers, contemporary counterfeits, modern fakes and no real authority to compare the LAST TWO (CCs and modern) ... but I am LOVING IT! <VVBG>.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
This period is indeed very interesting, hopefully for me, as of now, I've not started counterstamps - yet :D
There is many cataloging left to do, cleaning the bads from the good, studying contemporary counterfeit (and differences from coins made from each side of the opponents, sometime with the same material, other times trying to cheat weight, and fiat money ...)
It's indeed very challenging, and historically very interesting :) My first thing to do is to read a bit more about this era history I think ...
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Mat - its such an UNEXPLORED area that the POSITIVES outweigh the NEGATIVES by a large margin ... just saying about the WOI coinage ...
|
|
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
The Monclova issues are a great example for the problems of the War for Independence period. They are scarce to rare, but available enough to make a detailed study possible if one set out his mind to do it.
Spanish coin cataloguers have understood that the MVA stamp is actually a mint mark and not a counterstamp, and the Monclova should be considered a mint of the Spanish empire. US catalogs (OK, let's name it - Krause) list it as a Royalist countermark and have been unable to update their knowledge and cataloguing, and have thus caused much confusion with Northern American collectors for decades.
The MVA stamp, especially the more common "MVA/1812", can be found on coins as late as 1821, which has caused everybody to believe that the stamp was used after 1812 to further validate emergency issues. But in fact all these coins are later Chihuahua (maybe even Durango) designs stamped over the MVA mint stamp, which means that they used an old MVA coin as planchet and struck their actual design over it.
Which in turn means that pretty much all coins listed in Krause as host coins for the MVA counterstamp are misattributed. If you have, for example, a 1817 Chihuahua coin with an MVA/1812 stamp, Krause would list it as MVA counterstamp on a Chihuahua 1817 host. Yet it's a Chihuahua 1817 coin struck over an 1812 Monclova coin and should correctly be listed under Chihuahua!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Yes - Dos Mundos and this was an important part that Max Keech was bringing out in his MNA talk that all these validation counterstamps or in this case MINT MARK were between the years of 1811-1813. Maybe 1814 but no real evidence during this year yet? Interesting your connection to Spain cataloguers which being a Royalist mintmark (Monoclova) in some ways these could be placed under Spain in Krause. Yes the MVA1811 being MORE RARE than MVA1812. You know Alfonso (speeling?) of Spain (Coin Dealer) he had several for $750 each at the NYITL but I bought an incredible LVO KM-190 8R in FULL XF (strong central devices - of course) from MCC for basically the same price. He (Alfonso) also had a LVS/LCM double validation for $650 but it sold when I contacted him one month later in Spain for my next budget purchase. I own a MVA/1812. Looking for MVA/1811 ... Dunnigan has them but they are over $1,000. On my want list ... yes the overstrike ERRORS in Krause with Monoclova host coins ... still is this not a buyers advantage? Maybe ... <VVBG>. THe key is to remember is the validation/mint stamps are 1811-1813(4) only and with the Monoclovas the host coin dates were NOT CHANGED!
Next lesson ... <VVBG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/25/2014 08:16 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
colonialjohn : we want pictures ;) :D
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bopple-WRONG. John Lorenzo-WRONG. Confirmed by a guy named MAX in some dry and hot SW U.S. state ... as genuine.
Ralph - not to worry - this genius Chris Stevens jumps around alot. He has the #2 Collection of Kleeberg CC2R's in the country behind Richard August and ahead of this guy named JPL at #3. In andaround 2017 he will be gone ... I HOPE!
Here is the thread ... he probably will not sell ... just rubbing it into JPL ... I did notice the cartouche break at the lower right ... still a weak LCM OVER the MVA/1811 ... it happened before in Pradeau ... now that its REAL ... two days ago obviously Ralph I thought that overlap double ctstmp in Pradeau was also a FAKE. Live and learn ... the kid from Massachuseets is right and NJ & Germany are WRONG <VVBG>... here we go ...
Taxi Steve!?!?! LOL.... Probably not the worst analogy ever. BUT.... while jumping around learning as much as I can about whatever interests me, I was always secretly devoted and amassing my primary collections.
Anyway... I wasn't trying to torture you. I really wanted you to figure it out. I HAD FAITH IN YOU.
The lower left leg of "A" in MVA is clearly 'depressed'... Picture the physical stamping process and look ONLY at where the stamps intersect.
The "border" between the two blocks for MVA and 1811. They are bisected! CUT with obvious grooves from where the LCM stamp was hammered into the MVA stamp!
I never disputed anything you said related to "the rules of WOI". You were right! The LCM stamp CANNOT come before MVA. And it didn't. I was fooled (as was EVERYONE) to think MVA was the last stamp applied because of how strong it appears compared to LCM. An incredible lesson if you ask me.
Once I thought outside the box (or in this case looked closely INSIDE the boxes) I saw the clear evidence. This is a weakly struck LCM stamp applied over a very deep, strong MVA. Just the way you taught me it should be. If you weren't so adamant about the process of mint stamp vs validation, maybe I wouldn't have looked as close.... So thank you.
I received an email from Max Keech. I was in a panic! Because I only had another day or two to process a return... He was very friendly, and talked me down. He confirmed the piece as UNQUESTIONABLY genuine... and was surprised I had mentioned it was so quickly declared a fake on CCF. He knows someone on the site?
He indicated that I was also correct about the MVA stamp. It is absolutely genuine and matches the other known examples. (including the two Ponteiro pieces I had forwarded you)
He also confirmed the application of dual stamps adds considerable rarity, despite a "weak" LCM validation. He said that another weak LCM had been confused once before as being UNDER the MVA, but was confirmed as over upon closer examination. (maybe he meant Pradeau?) Lastly, and not surprisingly.... he said it was a great piece.
I'm just glad I got another opinion...
Looks like it may be destined for Heritage. Should bring AT LEAST $1100-1300... ?
Edited by colonialjohn
03/27/2014 12:19 pm
|
|
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Well, if the LCM counterstamp is actually OVER the MVA counterstamp, it changes the whole story. My assumption of it being a counterfeit was based on the picture in ebay and the description of the seller, who himself states that the MVA stamp is on top of the LCM stamp. This at least takes one worry of my mind, which was related to the high quality and originality of the MVA/1811 stamp which I considered to be fake. But if it is good, it's one thing less to be scared of. Each fake is one too many, so I'm actually happy that I was wrong! Definitely a nice coin then and a good buy - and a not so smart choice by the seller to go through ebay. You are right that it would be a four-figure coin if auctioned through Heritage or Ponterio. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
With the coin in hand and a loop the damage to the MVA/1811 MINT STAMP was probably more evident ... it was a good lesson for me anyway ... its that learning curve ... how many people in the U.S. know the host coins on the Monoclovas were made during 1811-1813 from Mother Coins and the DATES were not changed ... don't tell me ... let me guess ... <BG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
The lower left leg of "A" in MVA is clearly 'depressed'... Picture the physical stamping process and look ONLY at where the stamps intersect.
The "border" between the two blocks for MVA and 1811. They are bisected! CUT with obvious grooves from where the LCM stamp was hammered into the MVA stamp! Firstly, John, did your inner monologue go off and running here, or are you indeed referencing a thread about this another forum? Anyway... Counterstamped WOI issues are decidedly not my thing, so I refrained from this initially, but now this has piqued my interest :-> My one prior thought was that those scratches on the bust side do look old... and if a CAST 8R is indeed genuine, it WOULD by its nature have some stamps, right? Kind of a peripheral point, but something to consider. What Now, I understand exactly the analysis of what we're seeing that you're relaying from Max - it's certainly plausible. I'm NO expert at all on overstamped issues... so if the following reflects unfamiliarity with how overlapping marks should present, so be it. However, just to play devil's advocate, regarding the intersection area of the two stamps... If we tried to support the initial assumption that the MVA 1811 stamp incorrectly went over the L.C.M. stamp, couldn't you argue that those apparent indents in the MVA 1811 divider (and on the leg of "A") are rather the result of impacting spots that were simply already pushed down by the LCM stamp? Also... looking at the "11" of the 1811 date... if LCM was done after MVA, all of the final digit 1 and part of the 3rd digit 1 should have been impacted by "positive" relief portions of the LCM stamp (which creates the blank space between letter "L" and "C" on the coin). Why did the "11" then not get smooshed down more? Bigger picture - I note that you relayed Max recalling a similar example with weak LCM - but isn't such a weak LCM rather atypical? It is at least compared to what I see in auction archives (which, granted, is going to skew towards "nicer" examples). Like I said, don't know these much more than what I research on the fly, and am not a counterstamp collector/expert/afficionado... just some observations. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
One more thought - what do you make of the rim clip?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I was the second underbidder ... and I did assume it was real ... but after DOS MUNDOS indicated the LCM was under I thought the same thing as did this collector (C4 Member and friend) until Max confirmed his suspicions it was REAL. I did not think OVER ... I just assumed the LCM was earlier and forgot the dates on the Monoclova host coins were NOT CHANGED ... either way $400+ was my max ... had to pay for my A. Smith auction coins ... <BG>. Realeswatcher ... I am surprised a collector of your breadth is not into WOI ... at least in a minor capacity ... its obviously one of the top rungs in Mexican Coin Collecting ... no big deal. Some recent finds was that retrograde LVO ... as I told you I confirmed two other auction specimens from my current growing library ... also a General Vicente on a DEBASED Ag alloy ... yep ... that me causing problems again like the Sheffield and Debased Ag Chihuahua 8Rs in my 9/2013 MNA Paper ... I am also seeing alot of STRANGE alloys withese 1914 Durango pieces like a silver plated copper issues? Well at least from the E-Bay photo ... which lot ... don't you worry about such matters ... <VVBG>.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Well DOS MUNDOS - I now own it with a good profit to the previous owner ... <BG>. After all of this I am sure the Pt/Au levels will register out fine (i.e., 0.1-1.0%) <VVBG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Its unquestionably LCM (Lorenzo #3 of #17) over MVA 1811 now that its in my possession.
We do see Gerber:86: With LCM and MVA 1812 but separate;
We see Pradeau:1893 with LVS over MVA1811, and
We see Pradeau: 1891 & 1892 with LCM and MVA 1811 & 1812 respectively but again separate.
Just shows the MVA 1811 the mint stamp is applied at the end of the minting process & just more evidence that LCM is a northern Royalist stamp - nothing new ...
At my current research level it's the ONLY KNOWN LCM over a mint stamp Monoclova 1811 or 1812 known - until someone corrects me on this observation.
26.9 grams - good weight; 40.36 mm a little on the large size for a cast 8R and good Pt/Au trace quantities (i.e., 0.1-1.0%). Non-regal edge (i.e., non circles or squares) but not plain but light infrequent 45* diagonal cuts 360* around.
The full LCM counterstamp can not be fully viewed but its dimensions are 5 X 12 mm and has the semi-colon right side feature (#3 of #17 known types in my notes) - as with Keech I have verified two more than Krause with (17) recorded LCM counterstamp types.
See the 2R 1811 Zacetecas LVO: Pradeau Plate XIX #8 as the plate match based on current visual components, right side semi-colon and physical dimensions (5 X 12 mm).
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
04/10/2014 11:00 pm
|
|
Page 2 of 2
|
Replies: 22 / Views: 3,226 |
Page 2 of 2
|
First Page
Posted 03/24/2014 3:26 pm
