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Replies: 22 / Views: 5,279 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3445 Posts |
For the money the Ptolemy is the one to buy. But I am very partial to bronze. In fact if I was not 'on the wagon' I would snatch this one before you made up your mind ! Ninety nine percent of Alexanders coins depict "Herakles" wearing a lion skin (only) while this one depicts him with elephant tusks too! In case you are unaware Ptolemy I wrote the authoritative bio of Alexander which unfortunately is now "lost". He is the one depicted in the movie as narrating the story (Anthony Hopkins) and was one of the Macedonian Generals who accompanied him throughout his career. With this coin you get two for the price of one. The dimples as stated above are somewhat a mystery. Large bronzes from Egypt often show signs of having been 'edged'. The edges show file marks or are otherwise scraped by a tool. My own examples show misalignment of the dimples and I doubt the idea that a lathe was used. If you try holding a bronze disk with two pins the disk will not hold still anyway but rather stop when a cutter is applied. Personally I believe it to be a mark left by a 'pin' used to eject the planchet from the die (but that is another story). Long and short I would grab the Ptolemy. This is a very nice piece and even in the unlikely event it was not appreciated could be resold for at least as much money on ebay ! For me the choice is not even close between a worn out drachm and a very desirable large sized (24mm) bronze issue.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
I agree with the others; wait for a better example of the AR drachm. I'm partial to the Ptolemy bronze as well... and have one in my collection: Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, Ptolemy II Alexandria, circa 285-246 BCÆ Obol, 22 mm, 8.75 gm Obv: head of the deified Alexander right, wearing elephant skin Rev: eagle with open wings standing left on thunderbolt Ref: Svoronos 763
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New Member
 United States
42 Posts |
The silver is $45. The bronze is $40. I'm looking to have one of each type.
The first appears to be lifetime, which is the biggest deal for me. I like the test cut and I don't think I mind the condition at $45. I guess I can keep my eyes open though if that's what you guys recommend.
Is the second coin definitely Ptolemy I? It's listed as such, but definitely looks just like that Ptolemy II posted by ThisIsFun.
My end goal is one of each, and for less than $100 for both, that would be awesome. I do especially like how it has a test cut, whether that's a positive or a negative to serious collectors, I prefer it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3445 Posts |
Personally I think the AR drachm is a 'junk box' coin. I would consider $20 to be too much ! I have not bought the type in almost 25 years but I remember sellers at big shows (NYC) having bowls full of them back then in VF+ your pick at $40 ! With patience I believe you might still find a VF for under $75. Whether the AE is Ptolemy I or Ptolemy II is a good question. I have never fully grasped how these bronzes are attributed to a specific ruler as the usually have the simple legend of 'King Ptolemy' with no real differentiation of the rulers who minted them. Most bronzes of the Ptolemy's simply have the Zues Ammon obverse which we assume bears a striking resemblance to Ptolemy just as the Herakles bears a 'family' resemblance to Alexander. In this case you are getting Alex with a reverse type which is pure Ptolemy. As a long time collector I will say that while silver and gold are very pretty to look at, a nice big bronze is more fun if you like to 'fondle' your coins. They are fairly tough and unlike collecting modern coins the "look but don't touch" rule does not usually apply. This is why most of us hate coins which are "slabbed". If we want to see coins through a plate of glass (or plexiglass) we could visit a museum.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3445 Posts |
I would add that I am suspicious of beaten up silver coins. Silver coins circulated much less than bronze and silver in this rough a condition is not very common. Some silver and gold coins of antiquity look almost AU/Unc as they were "rat holed" away and rarely saw the light of day. Some modern 'fakes' have been artificially roughed up to disguise any tell tale signs of deceit. A coin a rough as the one you show may well be genuine ...... or it may be a modern fake made to look ancient.
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New Member
 United States
42 Posts |
I can hold off on the silver then with the comments. I have plenty of time to hunt one down for the right price. Hopefully a test cut as well.
I'm stretching here, but weren't Ptolemy I coins just say "of Ptolemy" as opposed to "of King Ptolemy"?
Any other comments on if the silver is lifetime? I may keep it in my back pocket as an option.
Edited by lod254 05/08/2014 10:11 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
Iod254, good question about Ptolemy I or II. Honestly, I bought this coin before I was in the habit of verifying the seller's attribution. In this case, the seller was Roma Numismatics.
I'm looking at Svoronos now and their attribution may be incorrect. In fact, I'm going to dig out that coin so that I can measure and weigh it myself because at the moment it is not fitting nicely with any given Svoronos example. With the anepigraphic obverse, lambda between eagle's legs, and lack of field symbols, it might be Sv482 or 483 (both Ptolemy II) but size-wise, it's a 'tweener.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3445 Posts |
Edited by FVRIVS RVFVS 05/08/2014 11:08 am
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New Member
 United States
42 Posts |
Wildwinds has me confident in the Ptolemy I now. After checking Alexander III mints, it makes me think the silver is posthumous. I think it's the one right at the top of the list.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
Iod254, you may want to bookmark this site for Ptolemaic coins: http://www.ptolemybronze.com/If your computer can run Java, there is an attribution program which can narrow things down. There are also links to the entirety of Svoronos (text and plates). If I recall correctly, more recent scholarship shuffles his attributions a bit (some Ptolemy III are now considered IV, for instance). I may be wrong about this though.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
Using the attribution program from the above mentioned website, the V-coins example you linked would be Ptolemy II, not Ptolemy I.
Also, the dealer incorrectly described the obverse as "Head of Alexander the Great r., clad in lion's skin with horn of Zeus-Amoon above " when it is actually the head of Alexander wearing an elephant skin headdress. If that is a gamma between the eagle's legs, and seeing no field markings, the V-coins example is Svoronos 482.
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New Member
 United States
42 Posts |
These ancient coins are proving to be quite tricky. Staying under $100 each, does anyone have great and positive examples of a Ptolemy I bronze with Alexander's portrait as well as an Alexander III lifetime issue? I'm ok with bronze or silver and would honestly prefer test cuts if they're there. As many examples as you find would be awesome. I'm not sure if you guy's like to window shop for others, but it'd be appreciated. Cool Bronze examples I've seen. Delta above the bow should always be lifetime, as well as E under the quiver, and eagle, or a horse with no rider. First two are prefered as they're 4chok bs 2chok on the latter 2. https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ce...Default.aspxhttps://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ae...Default.aspxhttps://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ro...Default.aspxPtolemy I None yet besides that one bronze that is apparently a Ptolemy II. I'm not sure of what markers determined that difference though.
Edited by lod254 05/08/2014 1:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
If you go to the auction aggregator site, http://www.sixbid.com, and type "Ptolemy I" in the search box (upper right) there are a couple low grade bronzes with the head of Alexander coming up (opening bids 15 EUR) I didn't look carefully at them to see if the attributions looked correct.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
Iod254... I am finding some things which may be of high interest to you but I don't want to post current auctions on a public forum (may foil someone's bidding plans). When I click your name, it says you do not wish to receive emails. If you can change that status I will send you some links.
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New Member
 United States
42 Posts |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 5,279 |
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