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1929 Set Really Ugly, I Want To Clean Them.

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 Posted 05/17/2014  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wolfman-11 to your friends list
A picture is worth a thousand words. When he had the coins the condition was like this..
1929-Set-Really--Ugly,-I-Want-To-Clean-Them.

now they are like this...
1929-Set-Really--Ugly,-I-Want-To-Clean-Them.

The decline in appearance has occurred after 12 years of storage. They never were in "mint" condition, and I never expect them to be.

NathanASE asked if I want to remove the toning. I don't know since I am finding that words have different meanings in the Coin World.
What is it called to return the coin in photo B to the condition of photo A? Restoring or preserving?

To me the definition of original means to be the same as when something first originated, or came into being ,but that is not so in the Coin World. In the CCF glossary original means the coin never has been dipped or cleaned.

Mint state in the Coin World means Original condition in the real world.

There are many more questions, maybe for a different thread. If the natural state of the coin means untouched, and that is desirable, why are there professional restoring services available? If a coin was restored and then sent for grading, would it be graded as original condition ,or restored? Would an original condition coin have a greater value than a professionally restored coin?


Can you see why I am confused?




Edited by wolfman-11
05/17/2014 11:17 am
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 Posted 05/17/2014  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NathanASE to your friends list
Aside of "ruining" them with a polish there's nothing you can do to remove that... Or a dip I guess, but again it would render it cleaned as well thus worth silver melt prices...

Also it would not go back to looking like the first pic you just posted, it would make it blast white with zero toning, which for the third time, would look much worse than the toning in either pic as it's a heavily circulated coin and should not appear blast white. There is no possible way you can make it look like the first pic again, cleaned or not... It's either going to be like it is or blast white... There is no in-between. You cannot make it look like photo A ever again.

And no, mint state does not mean original color necessarily, you can have heavily toned mint state coins (most of mine are, but again colorfully) toning has nothing to do with the grade. Natural state- means the coin wasn't tampered with, wether it's a MS or G grade, so your coins are actually considered "original condition".

The restoration services that the TPG's do does not render a coin cleaned.... It removes damage... PVC, vertigris etc... They don't "clean" your coins for you. Well... I guess if you request they might safely dip a coin for you to remove toning (which to me is 100% unacceptable) bit that would more often than not if not exclusively be for high grade MS coins with ugly toning... Not circulated coins. Again, there is no in-between, it's either toned.... Or it's not... You cannot get back to photo A!! And removing ALL of the toning from a MS coin would look FAR better than removing ALL the toning from a well circulated coin as it would look 10" times worse as a worn coin should not be blast white.

That... Is... What... Happens... To... Silver... Lol.... I don't know what else to tell you.... It happens to all coins as it's the natural progression of metals reacting with elements in the environment. If your father and law were still with you these coins would still appear as they do now... Would he clean them or appreciate them as they are? A lot of the old folders I inherited from my gramps toned in this manner. And I agree with Matthew, there's no ugly silver... Here's a shot of one of the quarters from my gramps album.... They ALL look like this but were much cleaner when he originally my put them in there.... But I would never dream of cleaning them off. I started a MS set to have high grade examples, but again would never touch these... Or the merc and rossie folders that are identical. They show honest circulated coins.

1929-Set-Really--Ugly,-I-Want-To-Clean-Them.
Edited by NathanASE
05/17/2014 11:58 am
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 Posted 05/17/2014  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wolfman-11 to your friends list
Thanks nathanASE


Quote:
There is no possible way you can make it look like the first pic again, cleaned or not... It's either going to be like it is or blast white

That is the answer I needed. If they can never be like it was in the first picture, I will just throw them back in the box.

Again, thanks to all contributors for your patience.
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 Posted 05/17/2014  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chequer to your friends list
The fairly rapid toning is due to their environment. There are chemicals in the card reacting with the silver. Better storage would halt that reaction, but then that may decrease your level of enjoyment. There are likely safer ways to display them, if that's your goal - I'm not someone able to comment on that though.
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 Posted 05/17/2014  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NathanASE to your friends list
Your welcome and no problem.. By posting pics of what you wanted it took like again helped a lot! And sorry if I was sounding annoyed, it wasn't my intent and I didn't totally get what you wanted until you posted the two pics. And don't feel bad at all, lol, cleaning and toning are most definitely the most difficult and debated topics in coin collecting... It can be quite confusing.

^^ That is true... You can slow the process by storing them in a different manner. Had they been taken out of that holder before being stored away they'd probably still look like pic A today... For another example my gramps sets of which I posted the quarter pic would have not toned that drastically if they were not stored in those folders for that long period... It's the sulfur and other chemicals in the paper reacting with the coin... So if you take your coins and put them in a non PVC plastic holder (or even individual non PVC 2x2's) and keep them stored right you can at least severely slow the progression of the toning, which even if you put them away again you may want to do as they'll turn completely black.. I would 100% recommend doing this... If you "don't like" them now leave them in that same holder for another 10 years and see how much you like them then...

And I wouldn't be too discouraged and just pack them away if I were you ... Obviously you can do as you please but I'd throw them in other holders (either one large, multi coin holder or separate ones) and display them proudly... Heck with the toning! Especially if they were a meaningful possession of your father and law. Or.... you can give them to me and I'll display them proudly, just playing..
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 Posted 05/17/2014  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wolfman-11 to your friends list
I have some hard plastic cases I will move them to. Do the paper cards affect only silver coins in this way? Any of the nickel or copper coins that were in these cards have not seemed to age.
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 Posted 05/17/2014  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NathanASE to your friends list
Glad to hear that. Personally I'd move the all, just keep the original packages separate.
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 Posted 05/18/2014  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list
Either upgrade your set or better appreciate them. Silver and copper will tone; there's no getting around that sulfurization. But don't clean them, sell them to me instead and use your funds to upgrade your set. Coins like that have character and are great learning tools. Seems like you're ready for something XF or AU.
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 Posted 05/18/2014  12:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list
One more thing: if you plan to clean them, remember that buffing them will leave them rounded with whatever shape you use with which to polish them. If you use your finger if will take a round dimpled shape. Flat and you will take off only the high points and the fields, leaving a weird gap where the field meets the high points, therefore the only detail you will have will be between the high points and the flat fields. It will look weird in either case via polishing/buffing.

And, you will never bring a proof coin to its original state. Ever.
Edited by Libertad
05/18/2014 01:13 am
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 Posted 05/18/2014  01:07 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list

Quote:
A picture is worth a thousand words. When he had the coins the condition was like this..


The top photo has greenish tinges all over it. That is PVC contamination. Time has turned that against you, the bottom photo is corrosion due to PVC.

You coins are not anything significant in terms of grade or value - do whatever makes you happy. I would start with acetone... good luck.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 05/18/2014  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wolfman-11 to your friends list

Quote:
And, you will never bring a proof coin to its original state. Ever.


Here is the set I spoke of earlier. The obverse side is as the day it was new, (mintstate?) but this side is like so..
The penny and loonie have no stains on them.

1929-Set-Really--Ugly,-I-Want-To-Clean-Them.

I promise I won't use the "C" word, the "P" word or the "B" word again

Edited by wolfman-11
05/18/2014 08:57 am
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 Posted 05/18/2014  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list
Good example of what poor storage conditions and high humidity, will do to silver coins...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 05/18/2014  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add persistnt to your friends list
..Wolfman.. I know alittle of how you were feeling- same as one of my first questions when I was fairly new...You are correct- use the word "Clean" and stuff falls from the Heavens...I will say look on the bright side You Question was good enough to make 3 pages, not many go past one page...I wish I had a set like yours- I have a similar penny/nickel but not the others....
Edited by persistnt
05/18/2014 2:09 pm
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 Posted 05/18/2014  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wolfman-11 to your friends list
Is there any hope for the 1997 set? I believe only the dollar is silver, so can the nickel coins benefit from a soak in acetone?
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 Posted 05/18/2014  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list
Acetone won`t hurt, but likely won't help .
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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