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Valued Member
440 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5825 Posts |
Your technique is different than mine but I can't find fault with your results. Except IMO you are going through a lot of extra steps to get those results. What s/w are you using to correct the image distortion caused by the angle? What hardware do you use to hold your camera? Do you use a remote shutter release? You've got good hardware, particularly the 105mm macro lens. I use similar hardware but only have a Nikkor 60mm macro lens. You never showed the other side of the coins so I can't be sure but it looks like there are remnants of a die clash. Here's my setup: 
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4038 Posts |
That last shot is certainly showing off the capabilities of the D810. However, it is also showing that you are varying your lighting technique quite a bit. Initially your diagram made me think you were attempting "pseudo axial" lighting, ie direct reflection from light to coin. This was what you showed with the ancient coin in the other thread, indicated by the bright fields and flat surfaces of the coin. The example above of the 1916 Shilling also shows this characteristic, but the 1/2 Dino tutorial example shows light coming from a significant angle, and this last 2 Cents example has light coming from even more of an angle. I can completely understand the use of an elaborate technique if pseudo-axial lighting is the goal since getting light around a large lens like the 105VR is difficult to impossible, but for oblique lighting you can get the same result with less work (no stacking, no distortion adjustments) without tilting the coin. Perhaps a statement of the purpose of your technique would be useful. Is your goal to allow use of natural daylight?
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10045 Posts |
Except IMO you are going through a lot of extra steps to get those results. Currently, the most tedious step is manually adjusting the focus increment for stacking. When I get D810-compatible tethering software this tiresome step will become automated. What s/w are you using to correct the image distortion caused by the angle?Adobe Photoshop CS6--and the steps described above where I remove perspective-based distortion are very easy and fast. What hardware do you use to hold your camera? It looks like you use a good setup! I use an Albinar copy stand--very sturdy and easily adjustable for small distances to the subject. Naturally--you wouldn't get these results without a remote shutter release. I also shoot mirror up and electronic front curtain shutter enabled. Quote: However, it is also showing that you are varying your lighting technique quite a bit. Initially your diagram made me think you were attempting "pseudo axial" lighting, ie direct reflection from light to coin. Yes, of course--that Aussie Shilling could be called "pseudo axial". And as I said, I like to experiment, vary shots and of course I reserve the right to use artistic license--even on my coin shots. I bore pretty easily otherwise.  Quote: ...but for oblique lighting you can get the same result with less work (no stacking, no distortion adjustments) without tilting the coin. Perhaps a statement of the purpose of your technique would be useful. Is your goal to allow use of natural daylight? I'll just preface by saying that previously I've been taking coin macros for several years--handheld and achieving "OK" results. One thing I took away from that experience is that tilting the coin markedly improves how evenly light falls on the coin, allows natural lighting angle adjustment while getting the camera out of the way. This also reduces the amount of editing needed to the tonal range (it keeps shadows/highlights in check). Agreeably, those two shots above are nowhere near 'quasi-axial', yet angling the coin is an integral part of the final effect, which I simply cannot achieve with a flat shot. You won't get light coverage/detail definition as you see here otherwise. I've tried so many angles before I developed this technique that I'll simply say it works--try it yourself if you like!  Finally, the desired effect is a "natural look", and I think both results are very pleasing and high-quality--my ultimate goal. I don't normally go into such detail over each coin shot; my goal here was to explain a technique I find very useful. Thanks everyone! 
Edited by DVCollector 08/30/2014 3:58 pm
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Valued Member
United States
234 Posts |
The focus stacking is a necessity here, right, since the coin is angled? Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the whole coin in focus?
I'm still very much learning about coin photog, so pardon my ignorance if it's a dumb question.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10045 Posts |
Quote: The focus stacking is a necessity here, right, since the coin is angled? Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the whole coin in focus? Yes--that's an integral part of this method, otherwise you would be hard-pressed to get the coin in sharp focus, even using a very small aperture--and a much longer exposure, which also complicates getting a tack-sharp result.
Edited by DVCollector 08/30/2014 4:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
This is very interesting. A few days ago I was rereading Doug Smith's information on focus stacking and wondering if I should try it.
Your results are wonderful.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5825 Posts |
Quote: I also shoot mirror up and electronic front curtain shutter enabled.
I considered using the "mirror up" technique to help eliminate vibration but decided not to. I use a wireless remote shutter release AND time delayed exposure. For full coins that works well for me. And I shoot at high resolution so that I can scale down the image. I've never tried saving the original as a .tiff (I think that's the hi res raw format but you end up with huge file sizes) but it's recommended if you want the best results. If I tried a REAL closeup of something like a mint mark then I'd consider the "mirror up" option.
Edited by kanga 08/31/2014 08:30 am
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Thinking about this technique I realised there is one lens, albeit expensive, that should perform brilliantly with such a set up:
The PC Micro nikkor 85 mm 2.8 D Tilt shift
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4038 Posts |
The 85PCM is indeed a great lens for this. Only caveat is it can only go 1:2, so would need an additional adapter like a PN-11 to go 1:1.
Adapters are available to allow tilt and/or shift with any MF-capable lens. These adapters are not as robust as the mechanisms built into a high quality lens like the 85PCM, but they can work well in a vertical studio setup.
Also available are bellows with tilt/shift capability, like the Nikon PB-4 or Minolta Auto Bellows III. These are pretty expensive on their own, and I find I prefer the adapters mounted to a normal bellows or lens. This is because the tilt/shift bellows move the LENS end of the bellows, while the adapters can be put on CAMERA end. Having the tilt/shift at the camera puts less emphasis on the lens quality, specifically the size of the image circle coverage.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
I realise going off subject can be irritating, so my apologies in advance. I have a stupid question. Why is 1-1 important?
I was taught and for a long time accepted that 1:1 is important for macro photography. However I now prefer 1:2 The majority of coins I am photographing are 39-42mm in diameter. Assuming I not doing something really dumb( which is entirely possible) there is no way I can get a crown sized coin fitting in the sensor at 1-1 ( not on my full frame and certainly not on my APSc sensored camera). I find 1-1 not that useful as when I want to take pictures of a part of a coin I am usually reversing a lens and going for higher magnification
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4038 Posts |
Quote: ...angling the coin is an integral part of the final effect, which I simply cannot achieve with a flat shot. You won't get light coverage/detail definition as you see here otherwise. There are many other techniques available that will give you good coverage with a flat shot. I also assume you're using "Flat" picture control on the D810, which helps quite a lot with this by compressing dynamic range better than other picture controls. I completely agree that if an axial lighting effect is desired, then tilting the coin and accepting the need either for focus stacking or employing tilt/shift techniques is a necessary evil. But because of the added expense and/or labor for every shot, tilting is not a good technique to recommend for everyday shots not requiring axial lighting. One thing folks should also realize is that the adage 'pixels are free' goes away with focus stacking. For example, let's take DVC's D810 as the example. The camera is good for perhaps 200k shutter actuations, so each actuation costs $3300/200k = 1.65 cents per shot. This is essentiall "free" by many folks' standards. But for the example above with 36 stacked shots, each final image will cost 59.4 cents, certainly not "free", and reduces the life of the camera to 5555 images.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4038 Posts |
Quote: I realise going off subject can be irritating, so my apologies in advance. I have a stupid question. Why is 1-1 important?
I was taught and for a long time accepted that 1:1 is important for macro photography. However I now prefer 1:2 The majority of coins I am photographing are 39-42mm in diameter. Assuming I not doing something really dumb( which is entirely possible) there is no way I can get a crown sized coin fitting in the sensor at 1-1 ( not on my full frame and certainly not on my APSc sensored camera). I find 1-1 not that useful as when I want to take pictures of a part of a coin I am usually reversing a lens and going for higher magnification It's only important if you are shooting coins that are smaller in size, or shoot FF. I shoot mostly Cents on APS-C, so need around 0.8:1 to get max resolution. For FF, this becomes 1.2:1 and even a 1:1 lens is not sufficient!
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10045 Posts |
Quote: I realised there is one lens, albeit expensive, that should perform brilliantly with such a set up: That's a nice lens, but I'm going to try to be content and work with the 60mm and 105mm micro-Nikkor lenses. Besides, it's sorta off-topic to this specific demo. Quote: One thing folks should also realize is that the adage 'pixels are free' goes away with focus stacking....This is essentially "free" by many folks' standards. But for the example above with 36 stacked shots, each final image will cost 59.4 cents, certainly not "free", and reduces the life of the camera to 5555 images. You know, this would be a concern if I were creating a film based upon time-lapse shots from my camera, where each minute of a 30fps movie takes 1800 shots--or 18,000 for one 10 minute segment.  For the most part, I shoot hand-held macro, where I can easily fire off 20-30 frames to (hopefully) capture one shot with the right details on a small animal. But, when I do a shot with focus-stacking, I have everything set up so I know I'll succeed with those 20-30 frames. From what I've seen, the odds are better with focus stacking.  Quote: The camera is good for perhaps 200k shutter actuations, so each actuation costs $3300/200k = 1.65 cents per shot. This is essentiall "free" by many folks' standards. More accurately put, the shutter is rated for 200,000 actuations, and typically they last longer. Even if the shutter fails, that's like a $250 repair, so the operating cost of "$3300/200k = 1.65 cents" only applies if your camera is as dead as the proverbial doorstop at 200K. Since I'm not doing time-elapse, I figure I'll use this camera for some years without shutter trouble.  Quote: I was taught and for a long time accepted that 1:1 is important for macro photography. Here's one more example of the resolving power of my D810 with the 105mm--focus stacked and Mup/EFSC. I shot this coin at 1:1.4. It's a rather small silver coin (15.5mm dia.), but my lens and 36mp sensor still captures some nice detail at this size--below is 100% crop (when enlarged). At this size, you can see the 1909/7 overdate, clash marks, lathe lines, minute die breaks, and re-engraving.  Compare to my prior shot taken a while ago, hand-held on a Canon SD790IS. While it's an OK shot, it's nowhere near the dynamic range or detail... 
Edited by DVCollector 09/01/2014 01:40 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4038 Posts |
Quote: For the most part, I shoot hand-held macro, where I can easily fire off 20-30 frames to (hopefully) capture one shot with the right details on a small animal. But, when I do a shot with focus-stacking, I have everything set up so I know I'll succeed with those 20-30 frames. From what I've seen, the odds are better with focus stacking. This is indeed a benefit of focus stacking. As long as your stack encompasses the whole vertical height of all areas of the coin, and you take small enough step sizes, the software will put together only the in-focus pixels and you'll get a final image with everything in sharp focus. It is one of the miracles of digital photography.
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