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Moderator
 Australia
16827 Posts |
I believe the fakes of this coin you can buy from AliBaba are likely to be made of nickel, or at least nickel-plated steel.
As for the OP's question regarding reduction in value for edge damage: yes, it can reduce the value. By how much depends on the damage itself, and who is buying it: is it "ugly"? Ugly damage can slash a coin's value to much less than half of an undamaged coin, even for scarce pieces such as this one. Personally, I don't think yours is too bad, but other collectors might have a different opinion.
Another thing to note, especially when selling to the North American market: slabbing companies generally won't grade a coin with severe damage like this. An ungradeable coin is worth much less to many American collectors, although a "genuine" slab is still helpful where counterfeiting is suspected.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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New Member
 Romania
13 Posts |
Thank you so muchfor your kind answers' I have not yet done the density test, I did the magnet, weight and measuring so far
A very common forgery is the aluminium -cooper edition witch is plated with a nikel or nickel alow, but that usualy is thiker and has 2.3 mm thikness!
All seems to be in order, I think is not hard to determinate a fake coin to a real one in this case
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
in your opinion judging by pictures/ weight 12.09 grams, diamter 31mm thiknes 2 mm magnet atracted is this coin geniuine? Thank you
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Pillar of the Community
United States
589 Posts |
The coin should weigh 12 grams, have a thickness of 2.1 mm, have a diameter of 31 mm, and be made of nickel (which along with iron are the two most common magnetic elements). It's within an acceptable deviation I'd say for it to be real. An aluminum-bronze alloy would weigh less than nickel (since nickel's atomic weight is 58.69, copper's is 63.54, and aluminum's is 26.98). Copper might weigh more, but aluminum weighs substantially less, so a mix of them would lower the weight significantly. If the coin is iron, you should see the start of rust, depending on how it was stored in your grandfather's collection. If it was kept away from air (i.e., in a roll, in a bag buried under other coins, etc.) it would probably not show corrosion, but if it does then it is not nickel since nickel does not rust. It could be iron since iron's atomic weight is 55.84, and a slightly thicker coin would add the extra weight needed to bring the coin within range of a genuine one. Density would tell you for sure if it's nickel or not. You will need to examine the surface of the coin to determine if it is cast (google cast coins and find what to look for), but if it was die struck then you could compare it to a genuine 5 franc from another year (if you have one) and see if anything appears "off". I'm hesitant to give you a yes/no answer with this, since it is a rare coin, I'm not entirely familiar with that series of francs, and since it's too easy to rush to a conclusion and believe it to be genuine. However, the more tests that you perform and that come out proper, it begins to look legitimate; however, it only takes one thing to be wrong and then it's definitively a counterfeit. It might get a details grade, but you could submit it to a TPG: http://www.pcgseurope.com/Submit?l=enA details grade, which although could lower the value theoretically by the fact that it's now truly marked as damaged, would at least determine it to be 100% genuine or 100% counterfeit. Of course, once it's graded, you could always crack it out of a slab if it comes back as genuine but damaged...that could raise the question of authenticity once more if you tried to then sell it, or you could keep it in the slab...it'd be up to you at that point. |
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
Edited by alexandra55
11/27/2014 5:42 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
589 Posts |
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm thinking it could be real. Apart from sending it to a third party grader like PCGC, and getting an internationally recognized professional opinion, I don't think much more really could be done on you end (other than perhaps the density test or comparing it to another 5 franc from that series under magnification, to see that everything appears exactly the same, with the exception of the date, of course)
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
Yes that is where my problem starts, I dont have a recognised company agency in my country or anything like that!
The closest ones are in Germany or France,aperantly I first have to pay for a acounnt(50 euro minimum) with them , than send them the coin VIA curier not post (100 euro) Pay for the coin grading evaluation(GOD know how much) plus insurance fees/VAT! My financial situation I snot as god right now so it would be a huge if not impossible financial effort, and to find out its a fake and lose all the money for nothing would be huge impact
SO I wanna do anything I can to be sure!
On some numismatic forums /fb I got a 70-30 % response
stil there where 30% who tought it was fake
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
density test shows sometimes 8.95 sometimes 9.05-9.08 result
Another known nickel coin I haveeee shows 9.01 - 9.02
Edited by alexandra55
11/27/2014 8:42 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
589 Posts |
Nickel has a density of 8.908 g/cm3. I suppose your results are within range, seeing as how you may not have the proper equipment to accurately measure the volume of the metal. The only thing you could do, if you're wanting to sell it, is to attempt to sell it. The worst that will occur is no one will bid/buy it. ebay is an option, a European coin auction is another. Not sure on requirements for one of the latter, but ebay is easy...but you might not get the attention of people who collect that series of 5 francs. Most auctions have a minimum bid requirement, and if you put a minimum requirement of 3000-4000 USD (which is the value of the coin if real), you just may get it. Some auctions allow you to add a description to the listing, which is where key things like weight, diameter, thickness, if it's magnetic, density, etc., will be of benefit (since if someone is skeptical about it being real, they will have measurements on which to compare to books and online numismatic resources, and base their final decision objectivity, rather than subjectively and automatically assuming such a rarity, ungraded, must be a counterfeit) Plus...a Chinese counterfeit for quick comparison: (20140630) Not Allowed - Auto-Removed /item/1939-France-5-Francs-nickel-Coin-COPY/755393036.html EDIT: Just google that part of the link Looks like two little dots, 1 off the nose, 1 off the chin; the back of the head looks like a weak strike, there are two dots below the neck near the A in the name by the rim, and 1 dot below the neck in the other direction; on the reverse you see some of the larger dots (berries?) that appear to touch the leaves and are very fat, not to mention the font looks off. Not to mention on the reverse, on the rim before the denticles begin left of the RF, there is a noticeable circular indentation in the coin, which is common of Chinese counterfeits (where they add the rim after the coin is struck, rather than at the same time like the originals), unfortunately since your coin's rim has a major ding right there, one cannot compare the two in that regard. What I can say for certain, is that your coin is NOT of the same die pair that created that Chinese counterfeit. Is it the only die pair used for Chinese counterfeits? Maybe...maybe not. Comparing your coin to http://img.ma-shops.com/chris/pic/combined770.jpg looks promising. And, if the above wasn't clear, you coin lacks the odd dots and larger berries. Edited by Groszy
11/27/2014 10:34 pm
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
Thank you that really touched the spott
I made a comparance to the china replica and you are right they have nothing in comunn
I was also wondering why would sombody destroy the rim like that if it was fake, isn't the point of making a fake look perfect and nice
Maybe sombody has some other opinion on the matther!
SOme peoplle on numismatic forums tought that the date dosent look right the 3 and the 9 at the end
Whats true they did not had a geniuine 1939 picture to copareit with!
Edited by alexandra55
11/28/2014 10:54 am
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
This is an interesting problem, alexandra55. You are pursuing your research intelligently, there is expert help here to assist, yet there is still consensus that this extremely rare issue is possibly real. If your intent is to liquidate the coin, you could likely negotiate a consignment with a reputable house such as Spink's in London, and they would handle authentication and presentation themselves.
If your wish is to hold the coin, at least you can afford to be patient in your search for the facts. One thing you may do is look to the largest precious metals dealers within your reach, to see if any of them have an X-ray Fluorescence tester. This is an instrument which determines the exact alloy composition of a metal, and can conclusively prove that your coin is the correct alloy. This is an expensive tool ($US10,000+), so only the largest businesses have them.
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
Thank you, I have tested another know nickel coin and its density was in of range of 0.1-0.2 difrence from the 5 francs nickel, I will do some reserch to see if I find some ccompany with a x-Ray tester to help but I doubt it
But for the price of nickel this days I'm wondering if it could be a copy made out of NIckel with the same properties
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
The relevance of the test might depend partly on the accuracy of the original alloy. Were there trace levels of other metals, not necessarily part of the original specification, or is it metallurgically perfect and easily duplicatable? I could envision the possible need to enlist the owner of another example for the same test. And, as you mention, the results might not be conclusive. Grasping at straws here.  However, the Internet is large and there is information out there we haven't found yet. |
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
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New Member
Romania
13 Posts |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 4,300 |
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Posted 11/27/2014 08:07 am
