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Treating Iron Coins With A Tannic Acid Coating

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 Posted 03/09/2015  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list
I have a few iron Chinese coins in my collection, but I have not tried to restore them. I'm more comfortable restoring copper and bronze coins. Ancientnoob is a chemist he might have an idea on how to restore them.
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 Posted 03/10/2015  1:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list

For one thing be careful of what you read on the internet as to chemical reactions with anything. Many articles are posted by people with either no knowledge of what they are saying or just making stuff up for what they think is fun.
Treating any iron or steel coin with almost anything could either ruin it or worse, if that is possible.
First of all you should try to figure out EXACTLY what your coins are made of. Iron is usually mixed with other metals or materials to give different results. Using an Acid, any Acid, may react differently due to what the coin is made of. An example is the word STEEL. It is Iron mixed with different materials for different reasons. One Acid may do little and others may react horribly.
My only suggestion is if you really want to mess around attempting to clean them up, start with distilled water. And too, remember that even water could react with meals. Also, try the old favorite Acetone. Some collectors may even say try Olive Oils. Regardless of what you try, just remember to be careful.
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 Posted 03/10/2015  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Groszy to your friends list

Quote:
ethanol alcohol

First, just a note: ethanol is alcohol. I think you mean "Ethyl Alcohol".

Second: iron is an interesting metal. Unlike most metals, which (usually, think bronze disease) form a protective oxide, iron oxide is never protective. It keeps oxidizing to the point where flakes of rust break off exposing fresh metal underneath, and the process continues.

As to conservation, I would be interested in seeing what others opine, but I wouldn't think adding a layer to coins is a good idea, even if it does protect them, I believe it'd technically be damage to the coins.

If your coins are heavily oxidized, then you might want to consider some chemical reactions to remove the rust (just be careful whatever you do); however, if they are only slightly oxidized, I don't think it'd be worth the risk of damaging the coins, so buying some air-tites for them might be a better option, after all, without contact to oxygen, iron will not oxidize, and those air-tites are just that, air tight. (I wouldn't submerge them in water, though)
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 Posted 03/10/2015  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list
Ah, something I can speak to. In the first place, throw out any idea you have of "oh, don't alter it, do as little as possible!" Iron, no matter what it may be alloyed with is still going to rust so long as it has active, red rust and oxygen.
Airtight holders would work if you could remove the air from them first but they are going to have air in them when you close them up. Rust does not take a huge amount of oxygen to continue.
Here is what you are going to have to do. First, you need to remove the red, active rust. Yes, you are going to have to alter the surface of the coin. Considering the coin is currently self-destructing, this is a small price to pay, sot of like how Ancients collectors remove Bronze Disease to preserve the coin itself. Careful work with small implements will be required,as well as copious amounts of patience, but you have to do this. Once you've gotten the red/orange active rust gone, you have to seal off the coin from oxygen. There is a product called Renaissance Wax, it's for conserving fine old items. Apply a coat to your coin, and you will note no color change but your coin will be sealed from air and moisture.
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 Posted 03/10/2015  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
Old-fashioned numismatic lacquering might have an application here as well.
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 Posted 03/10/2015  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Groszy to your friends list

Quote:
Rust does not take a huge amount of oxygen to continue.

True, but it would only continue oxidizing until all the oxygen is used up. Similar to landfills, decomposition only continues until all water and oxygen are gone. Then it's basically mummified. Permanently. (Mini-lesson: be mindful of what you throw out, just because it's biodegradable doesn't guarantee it will) Sure, air-tites aren't as air tight as trash buried two hundred feet down, but slabs aren't truly air tight, but they work well enough.

My only concern with the coins that aren't too rusty is potentially damaging them while trying to get the rust off. The OP needs to make a determination as to what coins he'd be willing to risk damage to -vs- which he'd want want to do his best to prevent further oxidation.
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 Posted 03/10/2015  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list
Quite an interesting topic, I have a good bit of German Notgeld in my collection and with many made of Iron, there are many with a touch of oxidation... Would be quite curious to see the results of this conservation method

ssuperddave, I think the idea of lacquer may actually be applicable, I have come across many coins that seem to have been preserved far better than they should have been, considering the environmental reactions non-lacquered coins that they were stored with underwent, I have always wondered, why did lacquer as a preservation method go out of fashion? (Besides the obvious annoyance of removal)
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 Posted 03/10/2015  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kenhovey to your friends list
Thanks to everyone for the input.
A few points. The solution is made acidic to allow the ferric oxide "bond" better with the tannic acid.(2ml acid per liter of water).See article. Renaissance Wax or other similar products or lacquer will help IF ALL of the corrosion if gone. The reason for the tannic acid treatment. With a couple of the museums I talked to, using the wax is 50/50 if the coins are going to be kept in a low relative humidity environment after treatment. I am not sure how many people read the article but the treatment changes the ferrous oxide to ferric tannate (Fe2+ to Fe3+). Most of the tannate gets brushed away leaving a thin film of the tannate on the iron. This film is supposed to be a blue-black color similar, I was told, to wrought iron.

A few of my irons have survived being buried over a 1000 years and I would like them to survive not only for my children but also for collectors in another 1000 years.

I am going to test this procedure and others and will post the processes and results with photos. I am thinking of getting iron "slugs" with various levels of corrosion to be guinea pigs however eventually I will have to test the actual coins.
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 Posted 03/11/2015  12:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
I would like to control the rust

Depends on what you mean by control the rust. Are you wanting to remove it or stop it from progressing further. To stop it from progressing further removing water (humidity) is probably more important that than oxygen. Most metal corrosion reactions are oxidation-reduction reactions and they require water to proceed. They don't require free oxygen from the air because the water also provides the oxygen.
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 Posted 03/11/2015  12:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list
What would be a good source of coins to experiment with?
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 Posted 03/28/2015  12:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kenhovey to your friends list
I was thinking of using the iron Japanese Kanei Tsuho coins. They seem to be very common. Many in terrible shape, just a lump of iron, and cheap on ebay.
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 Posted 03/28/2015  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list
Interesting, I've never heard of using specifically using tannic acid. Personally, due to the acidic nature of it and the fact that it leaves an ugly coin, I would not use it. It may provide a layer of protection but there are much better choices these days for corrosion inhibitors.....there are literally thousands.
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 Posted 02/09/2016  05:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spott to your friends list
kenhovey:

Quote:
I am going to test this procedure and others and will post the processes and results with photos. I am thinking of getting iron "slugs" with various levels of corrosion to be guinea pigs however eventually I will have to test the actual coins.


Have you had a chance to experiment or does it require more time to intentionally rust out slugs to get them to experimental levels?

SPQR:

Quote:
First, you need to remove the red, active rust.
What method do you recommend?

I ask because I just acquired a piece of rusted notgeld and really want to protect it from further decay. Thank you everyone for your help.
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 Posted 02/09/2016  07:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list

Quote:
I ask because I just acquired a piece of rusted notgeld and really want to protect it from further decay


The biggest thing as far as Notgeld (iron or zinc) is making sure it is stored in a DRY low humidity environment. Each double-wide box I have of Notgeld is stored in my safe with a pack of silica gel, which I do change regularly...

I have seen people take more drastic measures to remove rust on Notgeld (such as wire brushes!), which I personally think looks worse than the rust!
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 Posted 02/11/2024  04:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe_77 to your friends list
While researching the usage of tannins as corrosion inhibitors, I found this almost 10 years old thread. Would love to know if anyone has anything to add to this discussion?

As an example, would be interesting to know more about the more moderns approaches mentioned below!


Quote:
Interesting, I've never heard of using specifically using tannic acid. Personally, due to the acidic nature of it and the fact that it leaves an ugly coin, I would not use it. It may provide a layer of protection but there are much better choices these days for corrosion inhibitors.....there are literally thousands.


This paper is pretty interesting and features a huge list of them at the very end: https://digital.csic.es/bitstream/1...tefacts.docx

Edited by joe_77
02/11/2024 04:40 am
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