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2007 Proof Lincoln Memorial Cent Doubling?

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/28/2007  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list
I will attempt to take better pictures, when I can figure out a better way to photograph proofs, have tried the paper between the lighting source and item, still get reflection, trying some different things.
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 Posted 12/28/2007  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list

Quote:
It's not possible to tell from the images provided.


I'm going to disagree to a point here. Reflections and other camera artifacts aside, the shape of those letters in LIBERTY strongly suggests something is going on. That's the classic shape of a Class VI doubled die, and the fact it's a proof cent further strengthens that case.

My own method of analyzing digital photos of an object in question is through datapoints. If there are enough datapoints that correlate to the variety in question, other options begin to be ruled out very quickly by statistical probability. By this method, sometimes admittedly lousy photos will contain enough useful data to make an acceptable judgement call. Not to overwork this issue, but I've done photo analysis using poorer source data than many photos on this site. My position is: if enough photons hit the film plane in an identical arrangement, that suggests a positive correlation. There...I've positively beaten a dead horse by now, lol
Edited by KurtS
12/28/2007 5:13 pm
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 Posted 12/28/2007  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
Actually you're welcome to disagree, but I have actually attributed thousands if not tens of thousands of die varieties on cents over the past 25 years, and am emailed a hundred images a week with similar questions. I have ten years experience looking at digital images and trying to assess what the coin is using such images, and know where to draw the line between attributing something to be a die variety using online images and needing to see the coin to make such determination. This case is the latter, for a number of reasons.

First, I own hundreds of class 6 doubled dies. This is undeniably NOT a class 6 doubled die. If it's anything, it's a class 4 or class 8.

Second, this is a proof coin, which is very difficult to photograph with any instrument.

Third, neither the instrument nor the lighting used in this case is of highest possible quality, which throws a certain amount of reflection, and odd shadowing onto the subject.

Fourth, this is a new issue, and unless you've personally studied hundreds of 2007 proof cents at this magnification, I would hardly qualify you to make die variety analysis judgement seeing three or four devices on one single coin of that issue.

Fifth, I am definitely disqualified from making such judgement.

Which is why I stated, and stand by the statement, that it is impossible to tell whether this is a doubled die from the images provided...because it is.

The only reason I entertain this as being possible as a doubled die is that what I can see appears to somewhat match (by shadows and light) the basic characteristics of similar doubled dies that have shown up on 2001-2007 business strike cents, giving light to the possibility that a proof example might exist, and that this might be one of those proof examples.

However...to date NO proof doubled die obverse cents showing in LIBERTY are known for any of this century's issues, and I am unwilling to determine that they do from a couple of understandably poorly lit photos on a message board. I can further tell you that none of the recognized author/attributers of Lincoln Cent die varieties would disagree with me.

Edited to add: And this post reveals all the things I went through in my mind BEFORE making my first post to this subject. It's not a simple matter of glancing at a photo and being too lazy to judge the subject or even a case of not wanting to help...the answer was simple, yet the thought put into the answer would require writing a book, which I didn't want to do, but have at this point.

I think at times more credit is due to those who have poured thousands upon thousands of hours into the subject and have seen hundreds of thousands of coins and have photographed tens of thousands of coins. I have a higher awareness for people like this because I know first hand what they've gone through to be doing what they are doing now.
Edited by coppercoins
12/28/2007 8:26 pm
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 Posted 12/28/2007  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list
Ok, I certainly bow to your creds and experience with die varieties. What do I know?
That said, I'm won't begin attempt to sort out what you just wrote...sorry, but I guess I'm just not expert enough to understand. I have not even heard of class 8 DD. My off-the-cuff impression was from photos of proof cent DDOs in Fivaz/Stanton and elsewhere--hardly a definitive attribution!

However, my main point was that even incomplete photos can provide enough data points to provide a preliminary analysis of die varieties--confirmed or disproven of course by then putting the coin under a scope and comparing to established diagnostics. It's not a hard science, because it depends on both the visual data and the person who interprets it. Case in point is my 1870 IHC, where I found in that rough photo data enough datapoints to highly suggest the S-8 variety. At some point it's a judgement call, and sofar my calls and analyses have been fairly accurate. I'll post more when I have all my data collected and new photos made.
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 Posted 12/29/2007  12:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
Where our lines don't meet is that I am unwilling to give the possibility for false hope to someone who is just beginning at die varieties in saying "could be" just to have them fly off the cuff thinking I gave them affirmation of what they suspected. I have learned through the years to tell them that it cannot be determined through photos rather than to say they might have something. I have had more than one person angered after my telling them they might have something good and them using my "possible" as the go-ahead to spend $40+ to slab it and have it come back as Machine Doubling or without attribution at all. Then they end up with a 50 cent coin in a $30 holder and ill feelings toward a supposed 'expert' who told them they had something good. Believe me, it happens. I take the conservative route all the time. If affirmation cannot be given through photos I say so.
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 Posted 12/30/2007  07:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list
Ok, I have taken maaaannnyyyy pictures, different lighting etc. Here is the best, I think that I am going to get.

2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling?
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 Posted 12/30/2007  08:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
It still looks like a "could be" but not necessarily an "is". I would give it a 50% shot at this point...which is better than I would give 95% of the coins posted here.
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 Posted 12/30/2007  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list

Quote:
...which is better than I would give 95% of the coins posted here.


Now thats what I call a customer base !

Not every author of reference and teaching aid books can claim or influence on a personal level a 95% majority ! Very Cool !

Metalman
Pillar of the Community
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608 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2007  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list
Ok, neighbors think I have escaped from the looney bin. I set up outside to use natural light after the sun finally peeked out of the clouds, and I had a little table and a little chair with wheels on it. I was rolling around the table taking pictures to get different angles and lighting, boy they really think I am crazy now.
Pillar of the Community
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608 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2007  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list
Heres what I got outside.

2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling?
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/31/2007  07:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list
I am thinking the best way to do this is to do a detailed drawing of what I see under the loupe, and than take a picture of that. That may be my best shot at a good picture of this coin. I sure don't want to send it to be graded and attributed if it is nothing, I would really feel stupid if I spent money on nothing.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2007  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
The photos you are taking will do no good in attributing this coin. They are good as they are, but are useless in determining a minor doubled die, which it appears you most likely do not have. "sending it off to be graded" would be a waste of time and money no matter what the coin is if you're trying to get it in a holder as a doubled die. Nobody will holder that coin as a doubled die. Even if it is a doubled die, which I doubt, it is way too minor for any grading service to attribute as such.
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608 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2007  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list
OK, well the pictures are hard to get, one minute you say 50% sure it has some doubling, next pictures you are sure it is not, you said possibly class 4 or class 8 earlier in posting, so ultimatly, as someone here already told me, it is what I see, since I am holding the coin. I really wish that I had a macro lens for this camera. Maybe someday...It is hard though, cause you all don't see what I see, and trying to get there is frustrating. Oh well...such is life.......
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 Posted 12/31/2007  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
In that 50% I was also 50% sure it did NOT have doubling. Not only that, this isn't a minute to minute thing. You posted some pictures that looked like there could possibly be something going on, then you posted other pictures that show nothing. I also did say possibly class 4 or class 8, and that was ONLY if this was something...but it could not possibly be class 6 as someone else said.

The most important thing I stated, that you are failing to see is that there is no way ANYONE can tell you what you have from photos alone. It is far too minor to identify from photos IF it happens to be hub doubling. And what you "have" meaning a normal coin, Machine Doubling, or a doubled die...any of the three.

This is why I stick to short answers.

I should have said the following in the first place:

If it has any doubling, it's too minor to bother.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/31/2007  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
You can listen or not listen, doesn't matter to me. It's your money you're wasting if you pursue this coin as a doubled die. Nobody you would be sending the coin to for a holder would attribute it as a doubled die...thus in my book it's too minor to bother. I hate getting into long, protracted diatribe conversations about something so trivial. Go back and READ what I said, and you will see that I first said you can't take a photo that would show anything definitive, then I gave my reasoning only after being challenged.
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