Collecting Circ Or Bu?

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Originally posted by tonphil1960

Oh yeah I am a darksider too. Really interesting, but alot to learn.
Tony

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Learn well young collector- the force of the darkside is with you and the forum will help you as much as we can.

(My apoliogies to the forum - I don't know what has come over me)

Perhaps it is the fact I parted with some of my coins this holiday in an effort to get others interested,

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Originally posted by bulldawg

I prefer the AU coins over the MS ones. I think I can get a better looking coin for the money that way.

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I'll join that opinion. That said, I collect both circ and uncirc'd coins, but I prefer UNC or really sweet AU's. I collect Peace dollars, Walkers and Standing Lib quarters. The Peace dollars will be pretty much within my reach in uncirc'd grades (maybe not the '34-S, at least for the present). The Walkers are fairly accessible in high grades, but have a few dates that are out of sight. The hardest are the SL quarters: I like to see a full shield and I have gotten some excellent VF's and EF's with nice detail. But mostly, I don't like to buy coins below VF unless there is significant eye appeal, especially the Peace dollars, which tend to fade into a gray-steel fog. Other coins wear well - e.g., Morgans, Barber coins, although I collect neither at present. I have bought coins sight-unseen before (no photos; just promised comparative grades), and have had good results, but I wouldn't do it for important dates.

Terry's right! As my co-A.O.D., he knows of what he speaks!

Gary, A.O.D.

I collect both, but I'm liking circulated coin collecting more these days. It's more "old school" and less poisoned by the slabbing, crackout and registry set games.

Still, I do collect mint state coins, from particularly ice moderns in pocket change to a few Morgans and such.

Unfortunately, as interest rises in the circulated and "darkside" coins, I predict that those markets will also suffer the market grading that is prevalent in the UNC coins. Hope I'm wrong, but if there's money to be made, someone will. The TPG niche is one with potential for immense growth.

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Originally posted by longnine009


Susan I agree that niches can be profitable but only for those who are smaller, dedicated, trustworthy and who don't have to expend a lot of resources overcoming resistance or expend a lot of resources understanding the niche. In darkside coins and exonumia there can be millions of niches. It will not the same as trying to over come resistance for Morgan dollars where there are thousands and thousands of collectors and so a big payoff for a big effort. Stiff resistance from any niche will make the cost not worth the effort. I believe ICG already found that out the hard way from chip collectors.

But I agree, that they will try.

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I hope they don't try too hard....

Fred,

While I have no doubt what you have related concerning your experiences and opinion is very truthful, TPG statements and policies do not support your position. I was merely mentioning that the door seems to be left considerably open merely by virtue of what the tpgs indicate will not be graded (I assume on a supposedly consistent basis). While several types of cleaning are discussed on most TPG websites, typically exclusions for grading/slabbing are such as:

NGC, from their "No Grade Booklet", (which they claim gives the full details for their non grading), after describing some types of cleaning, they state ".....Where such action is harsh, it will mar or destroy the natural luster and leave a scratchy, unnatural look. NGC will not grade coins it considers to be harshly or improperly cleaned."

also from the NGC "No Grade Booklet", "A coin that has been immersed in a diluted acid solution (or, commonly referred to as "dipped") and not properly rinsed will probably develop traces of DIP RESIDUE. This makes a coin have a cloudy or brown unnatural look. If this staining is severe, the coin will not be graded."

From the PCGS web site: "PCGS has a policy prohibiting the encapsulation of coins with problems such as: artificial toning, excessive cleaning, environmental damage, PVC damage, major scratches, or planchet flaws."

Note that these tpgs (others have very similar statements) are stating that excessively, harshly, or improperly cleaned coins will not be graded. By no means do they indicate by those statements that ANY or ALL cleaned coins will not be graded. Since only specific types of cleaned coins are mentioned as being excluded from being graded, the only logical conclusion I see is that the other types of cleaning do not automatically disqualify a coin for grading.

To find examples of top tier slabs for coins which, by their criteria should NOT have been graded, search the web for info on 1894-S dimes, and you will find coins in NGC and PCGS (and one or two other) slabs that have descriptions such as "harshly cleaned", "noticeable spots", "lint marks", "multiple dippings", "impaired proof", "scratches", "planchet flaw", "significant mark on Liberty's cheek", and "circular cut on the obverse". The above descriptions are taken from the 8 known examples which are in slabs. Imagine how bad the Rappaport Specimen (9th) must be, as it reportedly would not certify at either PCGS or NGC. That would seem to nullify a "rarity" exception for slabbing, especially considering how some of the others are described and they were slabbed. NGC's "full details" No Grade Booklet has no mention of any exclusions or exceptions to the no grade criteria. I won't even go into the grades that "improved" as time passed, even as extreme as going from XF up to the 60 range.

I would think anyone who has had a submitted coin returned as "body bagged" for a light dipping or other "minor" problem, would have every right to be more than a little upset after seeing the problems some of those dimes have that did get graded/slabbed. Everybody's treated equally by the tpgs, right? Especially since the graders are not supposed to know who's coins are being graded. Personally I do not believe that, but that is just my opinion.

I used to work for a coin dealer for a number of years, and some of the coins we removed directly from mint packages and submitted to tpgs came back as "cleaned" or "artificial/questionable toning". We knew that definitely not to be the case. Interestingly, upon submitting those same coins a second time (and usually to the same house), about half or slightly more of them would be graded. These errors/inconsistencies occurred frequently enough that I personally would never make a submission to any of them unless I had a concern for authenticity.

Granted, tpgs (at least some) provide some degree of safety, especially for the novice. Possessing the personal knowledge to enable forming one's own valid opinion IMO has greater value than reliance upon someone's else's opinion. I would value a TPG's opinion on authenticity (much moreso than their opinion of grade or other attributes). I always thought tpgs should slab everything, even the counterfeits. The service(s) have all been paid for, so why not? That way, a buyer would at least know if the coin was considered genuine or not, and opinion on cleaning/toning/whatever else could be noted on the slab for the buyer to take into consideration during a purchase. The reason I include counterfeits to be slabbed, aside from receiving the service(s) paid for, is that if even a small percentage of them remain in the slab, it would in effect remove that amount from the raw populations where the unwary could be duped. There are also instances, at least within exonumia, where the fakes are worth more than the originals. But, I suspect that a fair number of body bagged coins are resubmitted by the next owner, or the next one, and the tpgs would not want to eliminate these "extra" submissions.

Hopefully the above substantiates my earlier comments that slabbed coins do not necessarily prevent anyone from purchasing any cleaned coins. The severe problem coins, yes, there is protection (with a small number of exceptions), but from all "problem" coins, no. The way collectors in general (until somewhat recent history) believed cleaning coins was a completely acceptable practice, I believe the tpgs would have precious little to slab if they truly did not ever slab any coin that had ever been cleaned.

Yeah I like em all too!!! I am working on a short set of Walkers slabbed in 64, love em, the design is great when on a brilliant coin. I do get more enjoyment out of my circ. coins though.

Tony