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Thousands And Thousands Of Counterfeits Produced Each Month.

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Valued Member
United States
462 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add plonker to your friends list
This is a stark warning for collecting as an investment. I can only see this prevents newbies getting in to the hobby and FUD on existing collectors driving prices down. I am wary of some of the world silver crowns being counterfeited , both quality and amount. I am not sure if most of these are targeted at US or non US coins.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
I worry about this all the time. If this counterfeiting continues, no one will know what is real and what isn't in the future. As 3D printers grow in abilities, they too soon will be making coins of all kinds. Then with the correct metals, no one will ever know for sure what is real and what isn't. Even now I suspect many collectors and dealers have fakes and don't know it. Sorry to say but this may eventually end this hobby.
Valued Member
United States
112 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TroyWhite to your friends list
I see it as a problem for a problem for raw coins and bars and a boon to Mint products, TPGs, and perhaps bullion where the metallic content can be confirmed.
DrDarryl started an excellent thread called, "Opinion: Provenance & Pedigree" yesterday that speaks to value being created by have a paper trail of ownership for items.


Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
As 3D printers grow in abilities, they too soon will be making coins of all kinds. Then with the correct metals, no one will ever know for sure what is real and what isn't.

By the very nature of how they operate, a 3D printer will not be able to match the density of a struck coin.

The Numismatic News article is from 2011, but the Big Tree Coin Factory has been in operation since at least 2006. In case anyone hasn't seen it, this was the article that was run on About.com back then. (this has been posted several times, it has had some slight updating sice then)
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoin....htm#showall
If you look at the pictures of the dies you will see some dies for non-US coins in there as well,

Even the US government has gotten stung by the Counterfeiters. They produced millions and millions of half dollars (at a cost of a few cents apiece), mutilated them and then got the US Government to redeem them at 50 cents apiece through the Mutilated Coin Redemption program. By some accounts, which were probably exaggerated, they actually redeemed more half dollars than the US mint has made. (The redeemers claim the coins were found in cars being recycled. To reach the amounts being redeemed there would have to have been several hundred dollars worth of halves in every car.) Since discovering the fraud the redemption program has been "temporarily" shut down.
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United States
188213 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list

Quote:
Can I say that in my opinion politics may have to be part of the solution?
Please, for the love of coins, leave politics out of this.

Quote:
Most politics is based on lies, deception and smoke and mirrors.
Numismatists tend to prefer facts and the truth
I will let that stand as a point of fact.
Valued Member
United States
112 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TroyWhite to your friends list
So if the Mutilated Coin Redemption program has been shut down and the factories are still running making the fakes. Where are all those fakes currently being produced going?
Wouldn't direct from the Mint products, TPGs, and perhaps bullion where the metallic content can be confirmed be a safer buy now?
How about proof coins, is it harder to fake a proof?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
19947 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list
They may have the presses but they don't have the important part - THE DIES. While the Chinese fakes seem to be getting better, they can still be spotted pretty easy. For collectors, the keys are the die markers which are virtually impossible to mimic.

Another important issue involves our customs letting these things in. Since most are not stamped COPY, they are clearly breaking the law. We must ENFORCE the laws in the USA or we are no longer a country. They need to find these when they're coming in!
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Edited by BadThad
02/01/2017 4:02 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list
In one of the display cases at the local antique mall there used to be a set of dies for a 1922 Peace dollar. I started a thread about it back in 2015 but was so busy at the time I didn't get pictures. It was still there last time I stopped by a few months ago. I'll try to get pictures if it's still there.
Rest in Peace
10197 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list
Badthad, . But isn't that the job of the Treasury Dept, a government entity? Its always a " maybe THIS time around" it will happen, with this "change of the guard". Ain't holding my breath, sadly, seen too many go by in my lifetime.
Valued Member
United States
112 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TroyWhite to your friends list
Oh, how I wish there was someone we could contact about this issue that affects
our hobby and our pocketbooks?
If there was just some I don't know "Representative" that we could perhaps call or
write a letter to who's job it is to listen to our concerns and effect change
(or enforce existing laws...)
Perhaps in a land far, far away...
Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list
Congressmen ,Senators ,New secretary of treasury ? Trump himself ?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2017  08:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list
Stopped by the antique mall yesterday afternoon. The 1922 Peace $ dies were still there. It was almost closing time & I was in a hurry so I wasn't able to have them open the display case. Here's a really bad picture of the dies through the glass.



Thousands-And-Thousands-Of-Counterfeits-Produced-Each-Month.
Edited by trdhrdr007
02/02/2017 08:46 am
Valued Member
United States
112 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2017  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TroyWhite to your friends list
I wonder how they came upon those dies? I thought they had to be destroyed
after use? They would look good as a desk set paper weights! How much are
they asking for them?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2017  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
Those don't appear to be US Mint dies.


Quote:
Another important issue involves our customs letting these things in. Since most are not stamped COPY, they are clearly breaking the law. We must ENFORCE the laws in the USA or we are no longer a country. They need to find these when they're coming in!

The problem is how do you do it? A single container ship may have from 200 to 400 of those containers on it. Each one would have to be brought to the dock, unloaded, inspected,and reloaded. And there are dozens if not hundreds of those ships coming in every day. Then there is what gets trucked in, and what gets flown in and then packages in the mail. And think about the delays to the shipping! It's Feb 2, got a package coming in from overseas? You'll see it in December. And your going to have to add several hundred thousand if not millions of inspectors. Yes I suppose it could be done, but it would be a nightmare.
Edited by Conder101
02/02/2017 1:49 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2017  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list

Quote:
Those don't appear to be US Mint dies.


I'm assuming you are basing that on the shape of the dies. I hoped there might be someone here that would know the shape because my pictures don't show enough detail for anything else. These have been sitting in that display case since at least mid-2015. The price was covered but I remember it being somewhere between $2-300. Anyone have a comment on the legality of these things?
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