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Green Copper Corrosion - Chemistry

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 Posted 10/09/2008  1:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
A dealer I know recently told me he has cleaned coins with actual jewlery cleaners and then used gun blueing on them. Then left them sat for a while in the sun, sent for grading and slabbing and about half were slabbed. The rest came back as cleaned. Naturally since all such cleaners are different and the same with gun blueing, it would be impossible to repeat this unless the same items were used. Also, it true. He also told me he has never been able to remove black spots on Silver coins.
I've been trying that for years also.
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 Posted 10/13/2008  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list
When VERDIGONE™ is used properly, this is what you can achieve.

VERDIGONE™ treated 1909SVDB in NGC slab:

Green-Copper-Corrosion---Chemistry

Green-Copper-Corrosion---Chemistry
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 Posted 10/13/2008  8:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list
So what actually has been proven (which I already knew) is that TPGs will grade cleaned coins. I know if I received a slobbed coin with streaks of discoloration, I wouldn't be happy.
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 Posted 10/13/2008  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list

Quote:
So what actually has been proven (which I already knew) is that TPGs will grade cleaned coins. I know if I received a slobbed coin with streaks of discoloration, I wouldn't be happy.


Why can't you admit you were wrong and that a properly conserved coin can be graded? I don't know what your problem is with me, but I don't care for your comments on any of my posts. I'd appreciate if you'd just read my threads, keep your comments to yourself and NOT post from now.

Thank You
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 Posted 10/27/2008  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list
Today I had to do some repair work on our SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) so I thought I'd use a Zincoln with verdigris as a test object. This is the first time I've looked at verdigris on a Zincoln!

Here's a snapshot of what I was looking at:

Green-Copper-Corrosion---Chemistry

The verdigris appeared to have some blackish, organic material mixed in. Looking at the relative abundances of elements, I confirmed this due to the presence of carbon. I was surprized to also find fairly high amounts of sodium and chloride, which leaves me to believe the corrosion was catalyzed with good old table salt. There was also traces of potassium which is an impurity in salt (potassium chloride). Interestingly, there was almost no copper sulfate, the verdigris was mainly composed of copper/zinc chloride's and oxides.

Just thought I'd share some science.
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 Posted 10/27/2008  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add desertgem to your friends list

Thad, I suspect that that area was initialized by skin secretions such as sweat since as I interpret the graph, the potassium level would be much lower and the iodide component would be seen. The carbon, sodium, potassium, and chloride levels would be consistent with perspiration. Do you have a photo of the coin itself and the area sampled? Might be a fingerprint ridge origin.

Jim
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 Posted 10/27/2008  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list

Quote:
Why can't you admit you were wrong and that a properly conserved coin can be graded?

At no point did I say your coins were improperly conserved or that they couldn't be graded. I said I would return a coin that had streaks of discoloration (clearly visible even on a monitor) that was graded as if it had an even-colored surface, even though it looks better than with the verdigris.

Sorry you can't handle anyone having a differing opinion.
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 Posted 10/28/2008  05:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list
Fascinating analysis of a "Zincoln*" and I'm glad to see your 09-S VDB slabbed.
*poor Mr. Lincoln, I suppose he'd laugh...
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 Posted 10/28/2008  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list

Quote:
Thad, I suspect that that area was initialized by skin secretions such as sweat since as I interpret the graph, the potassium level would be much lower and the iodide component would be seen. The carbon, sodium, potassium, and chloride levels would be consistent with perspiration. Do you have a photo of the coin itself and the area sampled? Might be a fingerprint ridge origin.


Excellent theory! No pictures of the coin, just a quick SEM-XRF analysis for fun.
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 Posted 10/28/2008  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list
Thanks Kurt, I hope everyone has enjoyed this thread. I wish I could have posted all my work here, it was just getting too time consuming. Now that I have the VERDI-GONE™ formula completed, I'll post little tidbits like this when I run them. I've been toying with the idea of working on some new variations, like a verdigris remover for Nickels. I've seen quite a few Jeffersons with verdigris too.
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 Posted 10/28/2008  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list

Quote:
like a verdigris remover for Nickels. I've seen quite a few Jeffersons with verdigris too.
That would be nice! I have a few nickels that have some potential!
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Australia
60 Posts
 Posted 02/08/2009  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RareSov to your friends list
Negative guy didn't even deserve a reply. LOL. But I'll take the time to do it for you.


Quote:

At no point did I say your coins were improperly conserved or that they couldn't be graded. I said I would return a coin that had streaks of discoloration (clearly visible even on a monitor) that was graded as if it had an even-colored surface, even though it looks better than with the verdigris.

Sorry you can't handle anyone having a differing opinion.


Everyone can see plain as day you DID say it won't slab.

Your problem is quite simple. You do not understand and won't move from your stubborn position. You can't even come up with N C S and said NCC

A CONSERVED coin has been treated with RESPECT and has not been altered at the molecular/metal level. Can't you see the beautiful coins that are being saved ? it is obvious from the pictures that any changes in patina are very minor, and usually BENEFICIAL. They look so much better! that 1909 is beautiful and was a very sad coin before.

Congrats, this is a great product. I'm surprised more work on this wasn't done sooner, you've cornered the market !
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 Posted 02/08/2009  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RareSov to your friends list
Just an observation.. with the "available" in the first post, it looks like it was always there. I'd add an "EDIT:" in front of it so people know its not part of the original post
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