Histiaia Euboea Coin Question

Bob;

Well I pulled the coin from the auction and will keep it forever with the other 5 I won't sell of these from different sources, not to worry. Hate to see a coin of mine discussed as fake especially on a forum I advertise on, but either way, there is such an open debate in my mind about these Histiaia coins of this type. First, for any expert to say there was never a die with this hair style and pellet I never liked. There is just no humility accepting the original forger might have copied an existing but still rare coin die type. You just know this is all beyond the electronic curtain of history, we have can't possibly say this as men of a science etc. Second, the world triggers on Histiaia for extra scrutiny and I am to the point that if I see a lot from Austria of greek silver for a grand I turn away if I see any Histiaia as real or not you don't want the hassle of dealing with them anymore. That is a shame. So can I find a bunch of these with this hair style and pellet type from a bunch of auction houses on past sales of acsearch? Sure. Can I quote the messages I sent to Roma and others about these coins and their understanding but ambiguity about if they want to discredit all of these with this hair style and pellets? Sure again. It is just frustrating the whole Histiaia mess, especially for the people who collect this city. There just is no room for debate, people are quoting the Torah when they say there never way this hair style in history. We used to make Laws in science and now people get upset as we call global warming a theory because hey it is just a theory. We just don't make laws anymore as science is just much more humble then it used to be. The ancient Coin World can have a very valid theory that there never was ever a die in ancient times with this hair style and pellet type. They just can't say that for certain and they really need more disclaimers in my opinion.

I hear what you're saying, Joe. That why I stated, "Even if Barry Murphy is correct..." and "if the coin is bad" - the pertinent word there being "if." He does have tons of experience with ancients but, then, there have been plenty of mistakes made (on both sides of authenticity debates) by guys with similar tons of experience.

Bob;

Well anyone can certify anything I suppose. That guy who famously on ebay lists coins high, cuts them down then takes "low" offers has one of these exact types, (much rougher) he says was $650 slashed to $250 with make offer and the condition and roughness he'll probably take $50 for a coin he paid $5 for and send a very official certificate to the unlucky buyer. Sadly it is exactly the same now famously "discredited" die set. I am just going to try to steer clear of Histiaia for a long while. Just such a mess.

I am well aware of much of the content of that video hence my sentence about no consensus about the consequences... but lets not diverge into a political minefield.

With regards to certification it always makes me laugh when people place grave importance on a "Certificate of authentication" which is not worth the paper it is written on. I am not one that trusts the authority of anybody on any topic unless their argumentation and evidence is sound. It is true that a little knowledge is dangerous and mistakes are possible but the coin itself must be testament to its own authenticity the piece of paper or even the encasement from a third party cannot be trusted in my opinion.

Bob L:

OK question: This coin I can't do much with. Just gonna hold it forever. And Barry Murphy says that hair and pellet patter never occurred in real coins. So before I do this I'd like an opinion please sir: If I very carefully document myself breaking the coin in half modern silver should look like modern silver. But what if I broke it in half and saw crystallized silver as you see with ancient coins that break? Or would people just say obviously the forger took a real ancient piece of silver and pressed an image on it or something else I can't even imagine? Hate to do this so famously, film myself doing it, and have people just say that was completely silly to do, we all know it is a darned coin period just give it up etc. Am I crazy? In fact if this was a modern fake, would it even break? Or deform instead like a metal? The coin is useless to me anyway. Can we just sacrifice it to the Gods of science this way?

Bob;

To rephrase the question, first let me say that when you noted, "Sounds like you don't maintain a "black cabinet" as some dealers do. " the photo below is all fake. I certainly do have a black cabinet I use for talks at the Temple etc about coins, but again to rephrase the question, I can't sell the coin, so I should just break it no problem, but I do again want to ask: Before I break it, if I find crystallized silver and it breaks like an ancient coin does that mean to you it was indeed ancient or was that silly as no matter what I try, x-ray fluorescence at work for example, this is just darned goods and no chemistry or experiment will ever change that opinion of the community? What do you expect to see if I try to break it Bob?

Bob;

Well there would have to be some parameters and a decent plan. I'd have to have a control for example of something modern etc. My research students are using a decent microscope set up in the lab for some tar sands works right now but as they say, for every hour of lab work there is 2 hours of planning. I was kind of hoping there would be a "if I see blank that means modern" etc. But if breaking a modern pressed fake and an ancient coin would show the same things that would not lead to a good plan for me. So many ancients of silver break crystallized and are not repairable at all as they come apart in a few smaller pieces easily. Like I expect if there were an ancient flan it would not bend at all, just break easily with force. Hate to plan an experiment and it mean nothing etc.