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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
The fact you think CAC would ever even consider Australian coins says enough. They won't even consider half of the US coins and want little to nothing to do with cheap coins. They have no interest in foreign coins especially not smaller markets. While Australia is heavily regulated PCGS has violated nothing nor mislead anything. It isn't their fault if you don't understand grading or that their + grade has an eye appeal aspect or why an 45+ will almost never happen and why + will be a rare grade especially in circulated grades. You have it out for PCGS and jump in at every time to try and take shots at them or bring down something they've done, just like the other thread it's exhausting and more misinformation. Maybe some of those state sponsored hackers you claimed would target PCGS did something sigh Your constant grasping at straws against PCGS is just ruining what otherwise would have been good threads. Edited by basebal21
01/11/2020 5:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
I actually understand grading quite well. Considering that I own about a thousand graded coins that are in slabs from PCGS (both California and HK graded), NGS, ANACS and another 6 companies (both small reputable TPGs and self slabbers) I do get to see the variances in grading.
I'm also well aware that CAC is unlikely to ever grade Australian coins, I'm only pointing out the issues that they would face sorting out the inconsistencies in PCGS grading. I'm not sure why you mention "cheap coins" in reference to what CAC doesn't want to grade, if t is a dig at Australian coins then obviously you don't know our coins as there are a number that sell at 5, 6 and 7 figures (US dollars).
Perhaps you are unaware but a large proportion of raw coins are submitted to PCGS HK branch with the intention of obtaining higher grades? A dealer that I regularly purchase from has told me of another dealer who takes his high value coins to Europe to get a walk through and usually gets a grade higher than if he sent to the US.
It also doesn't matter what I think or understand about PCGSs +grading, what does matter is what they advertise to the public. 30% is 30% and that is THEIR figure that they advertise with and coins of any grade can have eye appeal. So you cannot weasel out from the fact that PCGS has engaged in misleading or deceptive conduct.
You claim that I'm ruining your advertorial threads for PCGS but all I'm doing is holding PCGS to the high standards that they claim and advertise with and pointing out the risks of relying on their grades and slabs.
As for state sponsored hackers from another thread, did you even bother to check out those policies of those government (Chinese) departments? And they are not specifically targeting PCGS but any company in any field from which they can steal information and/or make money.
BTW may I ask when was the last time you visited China? Did you think to check out the shops selling the fakes or maybe pick up a few fake slabs for your reference collection? Or do you keep your fingers in your ears so you can pretend that there are no problems and PCGS (and others) regularly hide their screw ups.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1661 Posts |
PCGS should move to decimals (MS-63.75 etc.), charge a discount for resubmissions, and put the silly sticker company out of business.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7292 Posts |
AI (Artificial Intelligence) learning. We can get to six sigma grading. No more CAC need. My MS 64.87653 beats your MS 64.87652 :(
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
There's nothing silly about CAC and it will have a place regardless of any scale. While decimals could be possible and do happen that don't end up on the label no matter what scale happens there will always be a high and low of every grade, ugly and not ugly of every grade etc. Pure AI grading isn't the answer. There's no reason for anyone to fight CAC or be opposed to it, it is very straight forward and the markets still reward some coins without it. The biggest problem with grading has always been the low end dragging down the high end, that was the fix. It was never invisioned to get into cheaper coins, the market pushed it there
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
On Basebals latest comment I have to agree 100%. In ANY grade there will be a spread from the just made it bottom to almost exceeds it top and within that there are coins with and without eye appeal. And I don't expect grading to the 10th decimal place but is being accurate to the nearest full or half grade too much to expect from graders who do it as a profession?
My gripe however (and it is just not PCGS) is the lack of consistency where coins clearly fall above or below the grade on the label and that leads to there being a market for CAC stickers, green beans, gold beans, resubmissions, the crackout game etc.
If PCGS and the other TPGs lift their game I'll be happy to sing their praises (and yes there are many things to praise about PCGS and they do get it right more often than they get it wrong).
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
My gripe however (and it is just not PCGS) is the lack of consistency where coins clearly fall above or below the grade on the label and that leads to there being a market for CAC stickers, green beans, gold beans, resubmissions, the crackout game etc. If you agree that in any grade there will be a top and bottom, ugly and eye appealing etc, then how is it inconsistent that every coin doesn't sticker? In order for every coin to get a CAC sticker you would literally have to be detail grading things that should be straight grades, and ignoring massive parts of every grade. There's no inconsistency, it's just how grading is and always has been. No matter what you do to the initial grade there is room for someone else to pick out the premium ones. Has nothing to do with the ones that don't sticker being graded wrong, nor are the competition, though for some reason some do present it that way. For another topic though crackouts and resubmissions have never been as easy as the internet makes them sound. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Oh I agree that every coin won't sticker. I've nothing against an old slab (pre + grades) say in MS64 that gets a sticker nor against an appealing coin getting a sticker. I also accept that a low end coin within a grade won't be as good as a coin near the top of its given grade.
I do however get annoyed that I might have 20 coins (same date, same mint) where a choice MS64 was deserving of MS65 and a MS66 is inferior to that same MS64 coin, that sort of inconsistency is thousands of dollars when talking about coins that do or don't make Top of the Pops, and yes that so called MS66 is the top coin with a 4 figure book value and undeserving of that grade or value.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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I do however get annoyed that I might have 20 coins (same date, same mint) where a choice MS64 was deserving of MS65 and a MS66 is inferior to that same MS64 coin, that sort of inconsistency is thousands of dollars when talking about coins that do or don't make Top of the Pops, and yes that so called MS66 is the top coin with a 4 figure book value and undeserving of that grade or value. That though is just personal bias or how a dealer sold something. Not getting a high enough grade or the grade someone wants is the biggest complaint with the TPGs. Something can have more eye appeal at lower grades |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Personal bias doesn't come into it. i'd rather the coin be graded at what it should be and not grade above or below what it should be. Inconsistency in grading is what has made buying slabs sight unseen a risk.
More than a few slabbed coins in my collection were picked up (cherrypicked) by spotting such inconsistencies and the seller (often a dealer) has missed out on getting what the coin is worth because they priced based on the grade on the slab and not the worth of the coin in the slab.
Currently have another few hundred coins with a dealer getting slabbed (PCGS HK)so i'll see how many are consistently graded and how many outliers there are.
And of course some coins have nicer eye appeal than coins that graded higher, but when the higher grade coin has more and bigger contact marks than coins of lower grade then you have to wonder how they missed those faults.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2815 Posts |
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they are mostly grading to the nearest whole grade and ignoring the halfway mark. Wait. So are you saying that the "+" designation represents a midpoint between two grades? If so, I must tell you that this is incorrect. The + represents a coin that just missed the next grade up- a 66+ is almost a 67. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
It's halfway on the registry grade (for points) but higher (top 30% according to PCGS advertising) than that mathematically. I personally would have no problems if the + grade was the top 10%, 5% or 1% of the grade as long as they advertise as such and stick to it. Inconsistency in grading and keeping to the standards that they advertise are 2 of the areas TPGs should work on all the time to improve.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3540 Posts |
CAC alleviates SOME of the subjectivity of coin grading. How much is "some", varies as well. BUT, CAC could be considered a niche service....and maybe not. Pose this question to each and every collector: If you were purchasing a $100K coin, do you trust yourself to agree with the TPG that this example is correctly graded? |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
And of course some coins have nicer eye appeal than coins that graded higher, but when the higher grade coin has more and bigger contact marks than coins of lower grade then you have to wonder how they missed those faults. They didn't miss them, they're just more to a grade than contact marks. It's very easy for something to grade higher with more marks when it's superior overall. Why should an ugly dull coin grade higher than a blazing gem just because if has a couple extra marks in the field? Surface condition/preservation/luster is probably the most weighted aspect in higher grades, but strike, eye appeal, wear/rub, I'm probably forgetting something at this point too but all these are factors in a grade. Quote:
t's halfway on the registry grade (for points) but higher (top 30% according to PCGS advertising) than that mathematically. I personally would have no problems if the + grade was the top 10%, 5% or 1% of the grade as long as they advertise as such and stick to it. They state ""Plus Grades" exhibit exceptional eye appeal for the grade and constitute the top 30% of the coins in the grade." https://www.PCGS.com/grades/Now the website isn't always completely accurate, but the key words for plus grades for PCGS are "exhibit exceptional eye appeal". Simply being at the top of the grade isn't enough to get a + Quote:If you were purchasing a $100K coin, do you trust yourself to agree with the TPG that this example is correctly graded? Something not stickering doesn't automatically mean it was graded wrong. CAC has the luxury of being able to just deal in the premium examples while the TPGs have to grade whatever comes to them which of course means countless accurately graded things that won't sticker. That said I think the question is even simpler than that in your example in that it is simply "why wouldn't you want CAC" for coins that value. |
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Valued Member
Australia
73 Posts |
Seriously , the grading companies are their to make money ; just as LEGO is their to make money , they just use different vehicles to do it. Sure they might have started out to clean up the industry and for other noble reasons, but no they proudly claim " we have graded 35 million that is MILLION coins over the years! So these companies opened in the mid 80's? ; who thinks slabbed coins became the norm in the first five years ? So reality sets in to realise that to grade over 30 MiLLiON coins in around 35 years years , then those professional graders are taking coins home at night outside of work hours LoL ;) I am not sure how much a professional grader gets paid to look at 750 to over 1,ooo coins per day , maybe they work through their lunch breaks :( Remember each coin is seen by at least 2 or 3 graders so no matter the original motivation for getting into coin grading, today it is about mass production ! It will always be in the TPG's favour to under-grade since they know that coin will be resubmitted,but if the grade is questionable then enter stage right the CAC services . . . If the grading companies were serious about doing a decent grading job consistently , they would simply refuse to grade any coin under a 500 market value to lower submission levels. And I think we all know that will happen the day after our Sun goes supernova! Regards , always remember human nature is about opinions; the best sports teams,the best political party,the best form of government, what grade is this coin etc. Now we can argue over the best TPG's services :) |
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Posted 01/11/2020 8:21 pm
