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A Pair Of Canadian "Blacksmith" Tokens

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Valued Member
United States
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 Posted 08/12/2020  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list
Thank you for the kind words. I'm hoping to pick up a few more of these in the next little while.

Regarding Wood 23 (the first picture above), I've been trying to acquaint myself with the various die states. The reverse die was touched up numerous times throughout its striking to the point that some specimens almost appear to be different varieties. If anyone has their own example and is willing to share, or has any further information, that would be much appreciated.

Cheers!
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Canada
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 Posted 08/12/2020  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
Fascinating. Do people bother trying to grade these things? IF so, how?
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United States
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 Posted 08/13/2020  04:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list

Quote:
Do people bother trying to grade these things? IF so, how?


Yes! But it is very difficult, and TPGs rarely get it right. Similarly, Charlton is conservative with grades that rarely, if ever, exceed VF. Experts of the series grade them relative to "as struck": a function of detail, regarding known examples of the series, and surface quality. Prior knowledge of a series prevails as the general strike is known and anticipated.
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 Posted 08/19/2020  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list
blargish, I'll see your Bitit and raise you one!

A-Pair-Of-Canadian-
A-Pair-Of-Canadian-

"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


Valued Member
United States
178 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2020  03:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list

Quote:
blargish, I'll see your Bitit and raise you one!


Even more so, your examples are of both die states! Your second example (the later state) shows prevalent rust around the bust. Furthermore, the reverse of your first example shows the "R" of "BRITI" well (as opposed to BITIT!)

I hope to make another post in the future citing other information about these fellas.
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Canada
496 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2020  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billfrak to your friends list
Wood 23 has many die states .
Valued Member
United States
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 Posted 08/27/2020  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list

Quote:
Wood 23 has many die states .


Yes, I've come across articles stating that there are 8 or so; however, I've not been able to find anything that actually describes each individual die state.

And I was referring to Wood 33 in my previous post which, as far as I am aware, has two distinct die states.
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 Posted 08/27/2020  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
How would these coins have been valued and used? I'm assuming they're on the order of penny or half-penny.....
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 Posted 08/27/2020  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
Would banks have honoured them?
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 Posted 08/27/2020  8:49 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list
They generally traded as halfpennies among the illiterate masses. I do not believe the banks accepted them.
LM of RCNA
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 Posted 08/29/2020  03:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add norantyki to your friends list
@Silver101 these circulated as matter of convenience. People and merchants often knew that they were accepting fake coin, but especially in the Canadas, there simply was not enough small change to do otherwise. Savings and bank deposits were generally made in silver coins of account, as well as banknotes (both governmental and chartered), the latter of which generally traded at generally accepted discounts on face value depending on issuing authority. Interesting note that Mr. Marcus Goldman of Goldman Sachs fame started off trading in paper in NYC, buying discounted notes, and selling them where the discount was lower.
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 Posted 08/29/2020  06:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
@norantyki and @1960NYGiants - thanks for this info - really interesting. I find the social context of all of this to be quite fascinating. A world in which most people are only marginally educated and, given a shortage of something as foundational as coins, will simply make little replicas and trade them as though they are real. There's such a range - some of the merchant tokens are actually pretty fine coins - clearly professionally produced - whereas others are decidedly on the crude end of things. The thing I love about this early era is the diversity of it all. There's so much character and the coins are so polyglot - some look English, others look American, still others look French - and then some of them, like the brute beasts in the original post - look they could have been made in a bazaar in ancient Persia!

Then the big transition in the 1850s and 1860s as Federally approved coins start to appeal - all with a strong, heavily empire-oriented structure and propaganda role to play. These in turn would help bind a new country together in some sense and also bind that new country to England. What an amazing world.
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 Posted 08/31/2020  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blksmith to your friends list
The Wood 23 varieties were described by Warren Baker in the Jeffrey Hoare auction, Fall 1989, of the Ernest Everingham Collection of Canadian Blacksmith Coppers.
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 Posted 09/02/2020  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list
Silver101, you mirror my thoughts exactly. It is the diversity of circulating specie during that era that draws my interest to Canadian colonial tokens, and more generally, the coppers of North America through the 18th and 19th centuries.

Also I believe Canadian banks did accept them (at least some varieties) up to a certain point. McLachlan's A Hoard of Canadian Coppers (1889) describes a hoard of tokens set aside by the Bank of Montreal around 1837. At this time, leading merchants (and thus the banks) had started to reject the inferior and "spurious" tokens that formed the bulk of circulating specie. Included in McLachlan's descriptions are "Imitations of Worn Coppers of George II" which no doubt are, in whole or in part, referencing the classic Canadian Blacksmiths (ie. Wood 1-18). These formed some 500 examples out of the ~5000 examined.

Also described are "Imitations of Irish Coppers", the "Glorious III Vis Copper" (Wood 33), Blacksmith issues of the Ships Colonies and Commerce series, and other varieties of Canadian tokens. An interesting read that is easily found on the web!

blksmith, I have not been able to come across that reference on the internet. Any idea where I might be able to locate it?

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