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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5239 Posts |
How is it know that the coin came from Greece, anyway? If there is no provenance, could it not have come from anywhere in the region?
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
paralyse:  with every point that you make. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
According to what appear to be the original charging documents, the Eid Mar was given to Beale by Vecchi in 2014 "with no provenance" and Beale subsequently shopped the coin around (via photo) at the 2015 NYINC as coming "from an old Swiss collection". The same document asserts that according to an informant, the coin actually "originated in Greece". I assume that based on information from defendants and informants, the Manhattan DA and HSI were satisfied that the coin was stolen property belonging to the people of Greece and thus returned. Police agencies are quite adept these days at working backward to the source in cases of trafficking and looting. Copies of the charging documents have been posted in other forums but links to those forums are banned here, it seems.
Edited by Kushanshah
04/02/2023 03:35 am
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CCF Advertiser
 United States
1303 Posts |
Kushanshah; In my opinion, as this is one of only three known if real, the coin collecting universe will need more then the Manhattan DA knowing exactly where the coin exactly came from in Greece for people to accept it is real. They have to release how. Italo Vecchi is an older gentleman as witnessed by his photo below. Looking him up he has quite an influence in the coin collecting universe and had a good name. So unless he found this in his backyard himself and that is published as where the coin came from other people or another person are involved and that exact find needs to be posted for the world to see. The Manhattan DA might be satisfied, but for the next series of hundreds of years that coin will be suspect unless someone can say where it was found recently. Older coins that have been in collections for hundreds of years, no, but this one is too important for the Manhattan DA to be footnoted on the museum in Greece as the reason it is real. That is just my opinion and maybe nothing leaks out of the Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg's office and we will never know what he exactly knows. But it needs to be published for this coin to not forever have an asterisk. Even looted art from Germany in World War Two eventually we find out how they got the pieces. And that is way before the internet and the pedigree is known. Think about it this way, a man, Vecchi, will forever be the only published person who starts the chain of pedigree in the Greek Museum text and that will also have to say how he ended up on the Manhattan DA docket in court for not telling the truth. That won't sit with anyone in 200 years in my opinion. https://www.romanumismatics.com/ima...o-Vecchi.pngEdited by louisvillekyshop
04/02/2023 05:11 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
louisvillekyshop : Also a well reasoned opinion that you have presented.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-midd...ast-66594076A British auctioneer who was at the centre of a BBC investigation has pleaded guilty at a New York court to a series of charges in connection with unlawful sales of rare ancient coins. Richard Beale, director of London-based auction house Roma Numismatics, admitted two counts of conspiracy and three counts of criminal possession of stolen property, court documents show. He was accused of falsifying the provenance of the most expensive coin ever auctioned - the gold Eid Mar, which fetched $4.19m (£3.29m) in 2020 - and an ancient silver Sicily Naxos Coin, which sold at the same time for $292,000. He has also admitted to falsifying the provenance of a number of silver Alexander the Great decadrachms from the "Gaza Hoard", which were sold by Roma Numismatics and whose suspicious origin was brought to light by a BBC News Arabic documentary in 2020.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
08/27/2023 9:28 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
807 Posts |
Quote:
According to an informant, the coin actually "originated in Greece". It is quite disturbing that any artifact could be "repatriated" based on a mere allegation, not even entered into evidence in a trial with a named source, much less found as fact by a trial court, that it was found in such-and-such country. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Apparently Beale had no records establishing provenance and just made up a country of origin. Quote:
According to the court documents, Beale also admitted that in 2015 he entered into an agreement with an Italian coin dealer to sell the Eid Mar coin, which was minted in 42BC to commemorate the assassination of Julius Caesar on the Ides of March.
The two men travelled to Munich and paid €450,000 ($490,000; £385,000) in cash for the coin, despite it having no provenance paperwork or any other form of documentation.
In August 2020, Beale shipped the coin to the US to be authenticated and listed its country of origin as "Turkey", because any ancient items from Italy or Greece were more likely to be seized by US Customs for checks. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Moderator
Australia
16810 Posts |
Quote:
It is quite disturbing that any artifact could be "repatriated" based on a mere allegation, not even entered into evidence in a trial with a named source, much less found as fact by a trial court, that it was found in such-and-such country. According to the NY Times article printed back in March, the investigators had evidence the coin had been dug up "more than a decade ago in an area of current-day Greece where Brutus and his civil war ally, Gaius Cassius Longinus, were encamped with their army". I don't think the nature of the evidence is discussed anywhere. Not that this matters, as far as US Customs is concerned. "Where a coin was originally minted" matters far more than "where it was dug up", as far as the MOUs go that US Customs has signed with Greece, Italy, Cyprus, etc. A coin only has to have been made in Greece, or to be proven archaeologically to have circulated primarily in Greece, and back to Greece it goes. Here's the text of the USA-Greece MOU; scroll down to Section B7. If you have a coin that was dug up outside of its "native" territory, that's OK, but it's "guilty until proven innocent", in terms of provenance: you, the importer, need to prove that the coin was not found in Greece, or it is liable to repatriation. A receipt from a coin dealer proving that you bought it in Melbourne or Buenos Aires or Berlin is not going to cut it (unless the receipt dates from prior to 1970, when the UNESCO treaty was enacted). So if you're a British citizen and go legally metal detecting in England and find an Athenian tetradrachm, and decide to bring your find to America with you on holiday to show it off to your American friends, and you're honest about the coin on the US Customs declaration, then that coin is liable to be repatriated to Greece - despite the fact that you personally know that it hasn't been anywhere near Athens for the past 2300+ years. In terms of the EID MAR coin, there is no question that it was originally minted in Greece; this has been proven archaeologically. So to legally import it into America, the importer must prove, to the satisfaction of any US Customs agent that cared enough to ask, that the coin definitely was not excavated from Greek territory. Which is why Mr Beale lied and said it was from "Turkey". Exporting such a coin from Turkey without a permit would also be illegal under Turkish law, but US Customs doesn't care about this because Greek-origin coins aren't on the Turkish MOU. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
Greek and Roman gold coins, including the Brutus aureus, are not covered by the Greek MOU. Neither are Athenian tetradrachms for that matter (only fractions). The Brutus coin was repatriated to Greece because it was demonstrably stolen property. On another site a numismatic insider whom I tend to trust stated that the evidence included photographs of the coin in situ in Greece. The current State Department memoranda in effect can be found at the following link including lists of restricted items. https://eca.state.gov/cultural-heri...restrictionsEdited by Kushanshah
08/28/2023 10:05 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
I understand there was a crime of forgery of papers.
But did anyone prove the coin was found recently and exported contrary to the laws of the place?
Most everything in museums was looted. Now there is too much posturing about looting. And no one mentions the old looting. This thing called provenance just means someone wealthy paid looters in the past for the stuff. So why is the stuff in collections untouchable and the stuff in the ground grabbed by states? If the stuff Lord Elgin took is not being returned, why is this?.A single roman coin is less culturally relevant to Greece than that stuff looted longer ago and held in museums and private collections. Too much posturing.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
807 Posts |
Quote:
The Brutus coin was repatriated to Greece because it was demonstrably stolen property. If a fact is demonstrable, then it should be demonstrated before action is taken on it. And the normal place for that demonstration is a court of record. Allowing Treasury agents to seize property and send it abroad without due process endangers everyone. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
The coin was seized and repatriated by the Manhattan District Attorney. Quote:https://manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-r...s-to-greece/All were seized pursuant to multiple criminal investigations into high-profile traffickers and smugglers. Quote:https://news.artnet.com/art-world/e...eece-2275126These objects were seized by officials this year from the collection of Shelby White, a prominent philanthropist and Metropolitan Museum of Art board member, and her late husband Leon Levy. The seizure of the EID MAR coin was subject to the takings clause of the fifth amendment. It doesn't seem like the owners of the coin were the sort of people who would just give up $20 million in property without fighting it legally unless they were presented with incontrovertible evidence that they had purchased stolen property. It seems doubtful that the seizure was conducted based on a mere allegation by an informant. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
08/31/2023 12:49 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_forfeitureCivil forfeiture laws and precedent were also likely used to enact the seizure of the property. Although jurisdictions will tailor the contours to apply locally, the core principle, based on English Common Law, can be seen in the link above. I haven't found the decision in the case nor the order to enact the seizure. If you have the research tools available, it would be helpful if you could post it here.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
08/31/2023 11:52 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Posted 04/02/2023 12:53 am
