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Replies: 35 / Views: 2,894 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3179 Posts |
You should write a book cladking! 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
Quote: You should write a book cladking! Thanks for the interest. This was my original intention. In '70's and '80's I always used to tell people that most moderns were far scarcer than generally presumed and this went many times over for nice attractive and well made specimens. Most people had the idea that there were countless millions of perfect Gems for every date because mintages were astronomical. But mostly they told me that even if they were as scarce as I claimed that nobody would collect them because there were countless millions in circulation. Since those days attrition has devastated both the small supply of chBU coins and the number of coins in circulation. Not only are the survivors worn and most damaged but these poor specimens can be very hard to find because of attrition. Still very few people collect these. More accurately many millions of folders for circulating coins have been sold since 1999 when the general public came on board with collecting states coins in circulation and many of these folders and albums are being worked. There are quite a few (perhaps as many as half a million) people collecting these coins whom mostly are outside the hobby. They buy the folders in book stores or coin shops but have little interest beyond finding a nice 1992 nickel in circulation. It might be these people starting to create a market in BU rolls and singles. They're fast turning into real collectors but are still largely invisible in the hobby. I don't know. I find this all as surprising as Brandmeister does. But no matter what, this is a most unusual situation where the coins of the last 60 years have been mostly ignored by collectors. This may never change though and the behavior of the '92 nickel a mere aberration. History didn't stop in 1965 and neither did mint production. I still believe even after all these years that there will be a demand for moderns at some point in the future.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
Edited by cladking 01/22/2024 11:46 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4592 Posts |
For something to be valuable, you need both scarcity and interested people to purchase it.
Which is not to say that a book full of numismatic information isn't valuable, just that it will have a limited audience.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
It would be interesting if someone had a couple thousand dollars to waste to just buy every single coin like the '92-P nickel that is advertised on the net. I'm pretty sure it would affect the price temporarily as sellers try to restock where there is no ready supply. Of course it would take a great deal more money to keep the price high because mint sets dismantling would increase. I imagine one would end up with $25 worth of nickels for which he paid $2000.
But if people copycatted the buying then it would be easy to keep the price elevated and increasing.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1406 Posts |
I am a collector of moderns. I just bought my mint sets and thought, collection done! Then I started to learn to grade. Came to CCF and started to read comments like Clad King's.
When I started to catalog my mint sets and grade the coins, well, finding coins that I would even call choice grade was challenging.
Then going to my local coin dealer and spending hours searching through mint sets was really surprising. It is very rare that I will buy a set. When I do its usually just for one coin to be even what I would call high choice grade.
I think I have found less than a dozen MS66 coins in mint sets from 59-'99 so far.
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
6509 Posts |
Yes. I have found it particularly appalling that uncirculated sets for the last 30-40 years don't even have full steps nickels or full torch dimes. How hard would it be to pull the early die state coins for the sets?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
Quote: I am a collector of moderns. I just bought my mint sets and thought, collection done! Then I started to learn to grade. Came to CCF and started to read comments like Clad King's.
When I started to catalog my mint sets and grade the coins, well, finding coins that I would even call choice grade was challenging.
Then going to my local coin dealer and spending hours searching through mint sets was really surprising. It is very rare that I will buy a set. When I do its usually just for one coin to be even what I would call high choice grade.
I think I have found less than a dozen MS66 coins in mint sets from 59-'99 so far. This is the problem with moderns; it's not merely that they are far scarcer than is generally realized but the quality tends to be so poor. Mint set coins are struck more slowly under higher pressure with new dies so every coin has a chance of being a nice Gem but the reality is most are nicked, scratched, gouged, or poorly struck. Roll coins are scarce but it doesn't matter because they are almost invariably poorly struck by worn dies. Finding nice attractive specimens is difficult in most dates. 40% of issues like the '76 type I Ike in mint sets can't even be wholesaled as chBU. Then to make it tougher 90% of the few surviving coins in the mint sets are tarnished and can't even be sold as Uncirculated. People see numbers like this and think there are millions of nice BU coins but there are not. The reality is that you can look at every set you can find for years and never find a nice gemmy coin. I'm just talking an attractive well made MS-64 here. They are not available. Many of these moderns are even tougher in nice attractive condition but the '76 Ike might be the toughest in MS-63. People don't even look at these coins so they don't realize that most moderns in MS-60 are very ugly coins. Indeed, even many MS-64's are quite unattractive. Once the last of the mint sets dry up I have no idea where supply will come from. There are no big hordes and there isn't even a viable wholesale market at this time. There are no rolls and no old collections. I have a couple rolls of nice choice '76 Ikes that I'll sell as soon as they are recognized scarcities but this isn't enough to create a market and certainly not enough for a BU roll market. Modern coins have simply been "consumed" by a culture that no longer cares much about coins made after silver. It certainly wouldn't be too surprising if there aren't enough '92-P nickels to supply the current demand. Yes, this could only be caused by an imbalance that will largely right itself but the fact is this can only happen in a market with very little supply. I checked by the way and have already sold all my '92-P nickels. I probably got less than $10 each.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
586 Posts |
You will become a millionaire if you have 20 million 1992-P nickels.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1406 Posts |
The only way I see the modern market turn is if a trustworthy TPG comes up with an inexpensive grading system with nice secure 2x2 flips , security stickers and printed with basic grades like BU, choice, choice+, and gem categories. Charge $5 a coin with 20 min. submissions. Make it easy for people to compete with building inexpensive registries/collections and easy for retailers to sell. sorry, fully hijacking this thread... Luckily my '92 P's are good 
Edited by captainkurt 01/28/2024 10:49 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
Moderns are so easy to grade I'm surprised this is holding them back but I'm sure it is. I just grade them Unc, chBU, gemmy, and Gem. Uncs are ugly with multiple problems. "chBU" are fully lustrous but have several problems. "Gemmy" are on the scarce side and are fairly well centered and fairly well struck by pretty good dies. They aren't all banged up. "Gemmy" just is the lowest grade most people want clad coins. A few are MS-63 but most are MS-64 or better. "Gem" just means every attribute is superior. Many of the coins the services call MS-65 and a few MS-66 I don't consider fully Gem usually because they aren't well struck by new dies.
Grading isn't much of an issue for moderns because there aren't any "messed with" coins or coins with bad surfaces. Novices certainly shouldn't be paying more than small premiums for Gems until, they get a feel for what's available or buy them graded.
You may well be right that a very inexpensive grading service would help. One of the problems with these markets is that the guides list ridiculously low prices but then they say that coins have to be graded to get these prices. This makes a list price of $10 for a coin a negative valuation in the real world because people think after they spend $20 to grade the coin it's worth only $10.
These markets have been suppressed for many years and some of it is quite intentional. People have the crazy notion that any money spent on a modern comes right out of the value of a bust half dollar. It would never cross their minds that the money for grading coins takes money out of the market but the notion of someone paying ten dollars for a coin worth minus ten dollars is the end of civilization as we know it. And this is exactly why they paint moderns as having less than no value at all. But one of these days some modern will go up and not come back down. The '92-P nickel is scarcer than the '50-D but this can't keep the price up because the guides say they are negatively valued even in nice condition. But the '92-P is not so easy to find without lots of scratches. They come nice quite often but even the nice ones often have a lot of marking. Only about 8 or 10% are nice and gemmy AND have little marking. This makes these tough enough that collectors can stress the supply if many wanted to upgrade the coin in their collection.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
Quote: You will become a millionaire if you have 20 million 1992-P nickels. If 10% of the '92-P 5c's on the market are gemmy or better and there are only several hundred currently available for sale this leaves the number of nice coins in the dozens. I can hardly imagine what would happen if hundreds of people suddenly started collecting modern nickels. They simply are not available and there is no where at all to turn for the coins except for a rapidly dwindling supply of mint sets. Old coins are available in old collections and attrition on them is exceedingly low. Dealers have supplies of old coins. It's easy to find rolls of '49-S dimes or '50-D nickels. Where do you get a roll of '92-P? Modern coins have staggering high attrition and there is no market and no old collections. If you want a nice gemmy coin the PCGS price guide lists it for $10 meaning it's value is negative ten dollars because it costs twenty to grade. You can just buy 10 1992 mint sets for $30 and take all the rest of the coins to the bank and your net cost is about $11.20 These are crazy markets but the fact remains the coins are very scarce relative their cost. A '50-D nickel costs about $11 but these are hundreds of times more common than what I personally consider the lowest grade to collect moderns. Most '50-D nickels look fairly good. Most moderns do not look so good. To each his own. A set of circulated modern nickels would look really nice if each specimen were carefully selected. It would be exceedingly difficult to assemble even in F condition.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Valued Member
United States
293 Posts |
1992-P usually comes as a very baggy coin out of Mint Sets that year. If I'm lucky when I cut that set I get a 1992-P MS-64 SHARP STRIKE with NO complete full steps. If I actually get an MS-65 that's jackpot. The 1992-D nickel is usually even worse. There's just something about those 1992 to 1995 and then 1997 & 1998 Mint Sets as to why are just so darn baggy. Literally a lot of those coins in Mint Sets for those years are just pocket change. That's one reason why we dealers buy them on the cheap if we have to buy a whole bunch of all at once. If we need the singles we have to account for the fact that were are also buying a lot of stuff that needs to go straight to the bank.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
Very interesting.
I wasn't aware there were many dealers handling such coins. I agree that these coins are very baggy but I had believed that buyers were not so picky. Some of the 1984 to 1999 mint set coins are extremely scratched. I saved a few nice rolls but most of these have poorly made coins.
It is extremely interesting that buyers are so picky because there are so many moderns that are so hard to find nice. Most dates are poorly made, scratched up, or both.
It must be extremely difficult to keep some of these chBU coins in stock. Is there much demand for the lower quality coins?
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
Here's a coin shop offering the '92-P roll for $200!
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
I guess I shouldda checked that last post.
It's Village Coin Shop selling a roll of '92-P nickels for $200. Mebbe they saw this thread.
I'm really curious what someone gets for their money here. Is this a roll of really nice coins that was recognized as being better or maybe put together from many mint sets? Is it possible that the roll is just so unusual that it was recognized as such. This seems unlikely since so many rolls are unusual.
It might be pointed out that this coin shop (or one by the same name) used to sell a lot of BU clad, nickel, and cent rolls back in the day.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Replies: 35 / Views: 2,894 |
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