Coin Grading Companies

Ancient, you are entirely correct, but one of the purposes of this forum is to educate new or inexperienced collectors. It would be very lengthy to make all the qualifications necessary to make generalizations completely accurate. The original purpose of grading and encapsulating coins was to be able to provide potential buyers with some sort of guarantee that the coins they wish to buy are as represented, sight unseen. This notion has long since been abused by such one-person grading "companies" as ACG, SGS, NNC, NTC, CCGS, and a couple dozen more who consistently over-grade coins, some by as much as 11 points or will slab problem (cleaned or damaged) coins and misrepresent them as something they are not. Further, most images of slabbed coins are not good enough to make a full appraisal of any particular coin, especially on a venue like ebay. Worse, virtually all of these slabs from non-tiered grading companies are sold by sellers (many of whom are dealers) who have either been suckered themselves and are just trying to get rid of the slabs or are (to put it mildly) borderline unethical and are targeting the uneducated. The lack of knowledge of many buyers keeps these last-rate grading companies in business.

Thus, even though we constantly state, "Buy the coin, not the slab.", far, far too many people depend upon the slab to make their purchase decisions. Far, far too many coins in non-tiered slabs are problem coins and aren't worth anything but melt although the slab might state "MS-65" accompanied by a description which states "Trends $1200". I'll freely admit that when I've got the bucks to gamble, I'll buy a slabbed coin which I know to be grossly over-graded by a non-reputable company in the hopes that it will grade out to something near what I had guessed it might actually be based on a half-way decent image, as you stated, but I certainly would not even think of buying such a coin based on what the slab states nor if the seller has no return policy. I'm also experienced and knowledgeable enough in my particular specialty (Morgans) to know the difference between a "good" and "bad" coin, but it's taken me decades to build this experience and knowledge. New buyers don't know much about slabbing, so we try to steer them away from anything but the top-tiered grading services.

Therefore, I would be very careful about stating without major qualifications that "all grading services' slabbed coins are acceptable because the brand of holder doesn't change the value of the coin"; there is no practical means for determining the value of a coin from an image inside a slab if the picture and description or label are vague and/or misleading, as you stated, but unknowledgeable buyers don't understand this and are easily misled by the fly-by-night grading companies. This is why we recommend purchases to new collectors of only the three top-tiered grading services (PCGS, NGC, and ANACS; when they have gained enough experience to be able to judge for themselves, then they can move onto riskier companies.

While I wouldn't say "most" people on this forum prefer ANACS, many do for several reasons. The greatest reason is that James Taylor, new President of ANACS honored us with his presence on this forum for several hours answering dozens (hundreds?) of questions in January. I do not see David Hall doing the same. The second reason is economics: ANACS doesn't require we spend $$$ to join a club or society in order to submit coins for grading; ANACS submission prices are also a little gentler than PCGS and NGC. There's no doubt PCGS slabs command greater premiums than NGC followed by ANACS. The main reason is hype; PCGS has a deeply ingrained reputation for the best value although it may not be deserved. I recently had a falling out with PCGS over two Morgans and am in the process of switching to ANACS.

I quite agree with your comments about the PNG-ICTA survey. It would be nice to have a comparable survey of us average collectors.

Ancient, you are obviously an experienced and knowledgeable collector yourself. Please continue to share with us your expertise whether we agree or disagree with your information or any particular posting.

Bryan:
So far PCGS and NGC are the only two TPG coins I've purchased that are
in slabs. That is because of reading folks like Ancient.

I'm on disability and I've got to make every penny count. Event though
ANACS is concidered the #3 TPG,their MS69 XXXX is going to cost me just
as much as a PCGS MS69 XXXX. There are four coin shops in my little city
and if you want it,it's going to cost the same as a PCGS.

I don't see anyone giving a discount because it's in a #3 ranked slab.

Reading the forums on the net,it seems none of them know what they're
doing or they're running some kind of scam just to get your money.

I can't be the only new or come back collecter that has this impression.

....Tony....

Welcome to the forum BigMo.

Hope you enjoy yourself

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Originally posted by ancientmoderngold

My opinion is that all grading services' slabbed coins are acceptable because the brand of holder doesn't change the value of the coin. If you are buying online you should make sure the seller has great feedback. Only buy coins that have high-resolution, enlargeable photos so you can see all the flaws. These hi-res photos are often better than seeing the coin in your hand due to the magnification, but most online sellers don't include hi-res photos. Occasionally you will encounter a doctored photo, but usually the seller just won't include a useful photo if the coin has flaws.

Most of the people on this forum are biased towards ANACS it seems to me. I don't know why yet. Maybe it is a consensus based on years of experimentation. Maybe some of the forumers are affiliated with ANACS in some way.

You should always be careful when asking dealers which coins you should buy. They will refer you to the ones they make the most money on. Several of the members of this forum are dealers.

The PNG survey mentioned by Morgan Fred is completely biased in favor of the grading services that sponsor the PNG. They also only asked the opinion of dealers, so it is not surprising they recommended the most expensive grading services for whose coins they can charge exorbitant prices and rake in the profits. Is it a fair survey if they only asked the people they already knew were biased in their favor? Not in my opinion. They actually said PCGS and NGC had the best prices even though they are by far the most expensive!

Fred - I understand your point that it is the only study that has been done so it is therefore the only one you can link to and I agree. But I think it's flaws should be pointed out each time it is referenced.

Since I am not a dealer I would rather know what experienced investors think. An investor is different than a collector by the way. Investors look at things rationally and don't fall for the marketing tactics of the dealers and grading services.

If you buy NGC and PCGS coins you will be paying a much higher price than you would for other brands. You cannot compare one service's grade with another service's grade. Each of them have their own unique standards and methods. As a result each service's coins will yield a different price on the open market even if the grade is the same. NGC and PCGS are more consistent than most others, but they are still quite inconsistent in my opinion. I have had great luck (skill?) buying the off-brand coins and cracking them out of the holders. If you learn the skill of grading (so you can examine the coin before you buy it) you will be successful. If you just buy the coin because of what the holder says then you will be buying the rejected coins of people that know how to grade. This is especially true if you buy from a dealer because he/she would know enough to send the coin in for regrading if he thought it was PQ. That is why you will never rarely get a true PQ coin from a coin shop.

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Hi Ancient

Since I was the only poster to recommend Anacs !!! I thought I would post back to this thread with a bit of News !!!

I dont use any of the TPG's as I stated very clearly in my initial post !!

But If I were to send coins in and since as the consensus has already made clear (Anacs sells for the same as PCGS) then I would use Anacs based upon this sole point!!!

Every coin sent to Anacs comes back in a slab labeled, even if its a problem coin !!

So you see I have not spent one dollar with any TPG !! and I wont pay a premium above the true grade of a coin in a slab just because its in a slab, just to bust it out and put it in my collection !!

But when a man wants value for his buck !!! a coin coming back in a body bag is not the answer !!

Rick

Great post by everyone! Lots of opinions for sure, so how does one sort this out? For the average collector (or dealer) you should feel comfortable using ANACS, PCGS, NCG, ICG. Most will find you will get acceptable service and Grading/Authentication from any of the companies. The added bonus that ANACS adds is you can get a problem coin in a holder. There are allot of cleaned coins on the market that are still worthy of being protected and authenticated. Savvy Dealers/Collectors have figured out the strengths and weakness of each of the major grading companies and submit to their choice based on those strengths. As far a liquidly of your coins goes, a great coin in any holder is going to bring strong prices. Experienced Dealers and Collectors will be buying the coin, not the holder (old cliche). As a dealer I will pay the same $$$ for any coin in a top four holder, and I certainly wont pay more just because it is in a PCGS holder! That being said, if I buy a coin in a lower tiered holder, I crack them out and sell them raw. I have more luck selling a raw coin then in a PCI or other lower tiered holder, people just don't trust them. (And I don't blame them!) Good advice for everyone is learn to grade and then you can buy a coin in any holder or raw and feel good about it, it will widen your possibilities!

Hi Ancientmoderngold and welcome to our CC family.

One of the reasons that James Taylor came to our site was because Mike and I approached him about it. Prior to his appearance here, I preferred ANACS graded coins because the standards used were the same standards I use myself on raw coins. It was extremely rare to get a coin back that wasn't exactly what I thought and when it was different, it was only off by 1-2 points. As I am confident in my grading skills, ANACS was a perfect choice for me.

At the same time that I was sending my coins to ANACS, I was seeing coins showing up in PCGS and NGC slabs that I felt were overgraded. I have always tended toward conservative grading and I was unhappy to see that the market was causing the grading standards to become more lax. If you take a look at the 2006 Red Book as compared with the 2005 edition, you will see what I mean.

Recently, it seems that ANACS is swinging to the side of undergrading, which I see as a problem. I am hoping that this is a temporary shift and will right itself as ANACS completes its move and is more settled. PCGS has started tightening up on their standards also, making these coins more acceptable to me. NGC seems to have been the most consistent to date, but I have not seen many recent NGC submissions.

I believe the issue of under- or over-grading depends upon our particular coin interests and specialties. In the instance of PCGS and Morgans (my special interest), I have seen them recently downgrade their own Morgans and those of other TPGs. (Someone speculated that PCGS is trying to get their population reports into more favorably financial and statistical balance; I can't disagree with this notion.) I certainly cannot comment on TPG grading trends for other coin series although I am recently dabbling in slabbed Flying Eagle cents, but not with enough examples to make generalizations. However, it appears to me there may be wide discrepancies between the top TPGs within any particular series; what might pass for XF-45 at one might not make VF-25 at another.

And I'll echo the others' sentiments on ANACS: at least you get a slab back with your coin instead of a freebie flip and annotated label for problem coins.

With my recent negative experiences with PCGS, I detect an increased arrogance I can no longer tolerate. Since I'm not about to test the NGC waters due to the expense, I've switched my loyalties to ANACS.

Fred

quote:

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Originally posted by BigMo

Here's another question if I may.

Just because a coin has been dipped,cleaned etc,
why do some of the TPGS not grade it?

....Tony....

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Sometimes I think it's just to be contrary. For Mint State, it's ostensibly because cleaning, dipping, polishing (whizzing), and other means to brighten a coin alters the coin's surface. For circulated coins which have been rubbing in peoples' pockets for years, have been "thumbed" as they pass from one person to another, have bumped against other coins in cash registers, pockets, and cookie jars, I have absolutely no idea; the surfaces have already been altered by the mere fact they've been handled. Of course, "harsh cleaning" with a wire brush or abrasive polish is obvious, but often there is no detectable difference between a well-circulated coin and one which has been "altered".

In fact, it is entirely likely an ultra-rare coin has been cleaned at some point in its past and will still be graded and slabbed. It also depends on the coin's and current owner's pedigree. Nobody can tell me that a newly found 1804 Bust Dollar which has been harshly cleaned will be bodybagged by PCGS and NGC and returned to the owner without a slab. In fact, NGC's sister company NCS (Natl Conservation Service) is in the business of cleaning coins, getting away with it, and making a lot of money doing so. I should note in NCS's defense that there's a thin definitional line between "cleaning" and "conservation".