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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2009  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list
There are many sellers on ebay that overgrade coins, sell fakes, use pictures that inaccurately represent the coin, send coins other than the ones posted, etc. There's no doubt that all of these practices are terrible, but they aren't all a cause for legal action. Selling fakes & "bait & switch" are both illegal, almost everything else is probably not actionable under current law.

I don't like any of the ways that sellers try to scam people, even if it's not illegal it's reprehensible. That doesn't mean the buyer doesn't have responsibility for their own actions.

IMO buyers should do everything in their power to look out for their own best interests BEFORE they bid. That means asking questions of the seller, or getting someone else to look at the auction, or not bidding on items that seem too good to be true.

It's one thing to get scammed, & quite another to knowingly bid on a questionable auction. This thread would not be here if the seller had sent the more expensive coin.

If the buyer has done everything they should have done before bidding, win the auction, & feel like they got scammed the very first thing they should do is COMMUNICATE with the seller. The way the seller responds should let you know if it was an honest mistake or a scam. Then, & only then, should the buyer do whatever they think needs to be done to recover their loss & warn others.

I don't know how much weight the forum has. I doubt it's enough to change the law or ebay policy. I do know there are forum members that actively watch for fraudulent auctions & successfully have them ended. That might be the best way to combat auction fraud.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2009  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list
Some questions still remain unanswered:

If you had questions about the coin why didn't you ask them ahead of time?

What proof do you have that this mis-listed item was intentional?

If you had no intention of returning the coin, why did you bother the seller by asking about a returning it?

Why bother posting this thread if you got what you expected?

No matter where you buy coins there are pitfalls. Scammers like the Coin Vault and Littleton have been around long before Internet commerce became popular. As a buyer it is important to understand how the market works and protect yourself as best you can. You can complain all you want about how this seller wronged you, but I still contend that all of your troubles could have been avoided if you had done your due diligence to begin with.

As far as petitioning the government for regulatory help goes...forget it. "Coin buyers protection laws" would likely result in an inept government entity funded by taxes levied against your numismatic purchases.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2009  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list
snowman,
here are your bone honest answers ( I always am, even if it hurts, simply I do not want to remember what the lie would have been about should it ever come up)
1 I was hoping it would have been a 45. we all are guilty of seeking an advantage.
2 I had NO proof before he stated he never had a 45, and he denied ever having one.
3 I never said that I asked him about a return. I asked him for his position and what he wanted to do. He immediately said, simply return it... that is hen I suggestd it was misleading what he did.
4 read all my replies carefully and YOU will suddenly recognice WHY.. , specially my last one.


I thought this was a perfect venue to get opinions and perhaps experiences.. and others can learn from it.
But, trust me...I did not expect such, ( in one case outright rude an inappropriate responses.
I learned my lesson and I will live by the consequences.
HHB
Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2009  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jays-Dad to your friends list
Here's my opinion, ebay is a crapshoot. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. I have had plenty of cases where the "title" did not match the coin and I assumed I would get the shown coin. This is a good strategy for me because I buy nothing that is of a high value. As the basis of this whole thread goes, I have usually gotten the item shown. However, since I only buy cheaper stuff, even when it didn't, I didn't care too much.

However, if the auction description does not say something like "the item you receive will be similar to this pictured item, but you will get the 1946" then it really is fraud. Stock photos are not fraud, failing to tell the buyer they are stock photos seems like it is.
Forum Dad
Learn More...
United States
24170 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2009  10:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list

Quote:
2 I had NO proof before he stated he never had a 45, and he denied ever having one.


I have about 30,000 pictures of coins that I've never been in the same room with on my computer. It's easy to upload a wrong photo. Just because he had a picture, doesn't mean he ever had the coin. You're mad at others here for assuming, but you are too... Just sayin'.....
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2009  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list
Ok Bobby 131313,
again you are one of these assuming something:
I never said I am mad about it.
you did not read everything and thought about it. otherwise you would have noticed that I described a case and asked for input and opinions. Remember, first I did not disclose that I had already decided to keep the coin. It was not an issue anymore for mewhen I posted this first. at the beginning I did not place any demands, ideas etc, just listed a case and asked for input etc. Nobody needed to take sides, but most did and by doing so put themselves in to either his or my shoes, and thought very little about the other.Simply just defending one side. It did not matter about the money to me at this point. I can easily afford it. All that mattered is HOW to prevent it in the future and help others to avoid such issues. very few of you actually considered this. It is full with I would, you should, I would have, you should have. Few asked DID YOU? DID HE?
I state, based on the reactions from the members, that most replies were immediately while reading it, biased by assuming one side's position or defense.
It appears , judging on some inputs, that a few replies were taken to the EXTREME.
AND, the seller, at the time of his listing, did ONLY sell canadian Silver dollars ( about 20 or so), nothing else.Fat chance of making a mistake....
The 45 picture had all the SAME lighting method,Properties and characteristics as his other pictures. Similar pictures still are in his present listings, all the same.
A mistaken picture? NOT in my opinion. AND, if so, why did he deny ever having a 45? that is the latest time he should have admitted his "mistake" and corrected it.
he will most likely get 3 positive feedbacks (3 others I have bought with no problems) and one negative because he was lying, saying he NEVER had a 45. And I will say it in the comments. However, I have not decided this yet.

HHB
PS: need to point out that English is not my mother tounge and perhaps sometimes I use inappropriateor wrong words or fraze my sentences not exactly as it should be.
Edited by hhbkiddo
07/10/2009 11:22 am
Forum Dad
Learn More...
United States
24170 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2009  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list
Well, honestly I don't know what you're talking about in your reply to me. The facts here are you said very plainly....


Quote:
Fact is he said afterwards he never had a 45. That person is not telling the truth.


My point is simple. Assuming someone is a liar is a big assuption. I'm merely trying to point out that you're getting upset at people here because they are assuming things about this scenario, but you are assuming the seller is a liar just because he has a picture of a 45.

If I had every coin that I have photographs of, I'd be retired.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2009  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list
which he posted and said he never had it. perhaps he can't see the difference between a 5 and a 6?
again...I AM NOT UP SET.

this subject is now closed for me.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2521 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2009  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratman4762 to your friends list
HHbkiddo, I think what Bobby is trying to say is a person can have pictures on his computer of coins that they never owned (presumably for educational or want list purposes).
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2009  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list
Hello again,
further development to the topic subject.
the guy is at it again... for the 3rd time now.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...TRK:MEWAX:IT

2 weeks ago he had it up and removed it then. probably because someone complained.
I understand that everybody can make a mistake....maybe once...maybe 2 times....BUT 3 times? specially having been made aware of it? NO WAY
He is clearly aware that the reverse picture is a 1945 Canada Dollar and not a 46.
at the time I asked what the legal position in the US would be. some of you literally gave me heck....
Well, I believe he is doing this purposely to attract a higher, MUCH higher price.
He should be stopped. But.... HOW?
HHB
Edited by hhbkiddo
08/17/2009 11:22 am
Rest in Peace
United States
2668 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2009  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Parklane64 to your friends list
Good, you left neutral feedback with information to the problem. That's the best way to help buyers that do their due diligence before buying.

hhbkiddo, you are correct and several people have agreed with you. And due to the new listing it is obviously intentional. Bobby pointed out how it could have been an honest mistake, before it became flagrant.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2009  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list

Quote:
As for if any US law can apply to the situation, I don't believe there are any.

How could one prove that the seller knowingly inserted the wrong picture?
How could one prove it wasn't an error?

To many "ifs" for a court to get involved, but I'm sure there are lawyers who will take up a case is someone has money to spend


It's really apparent many here do not watch auto dealer commercials. I still remember the Jim Moran the Curtisy man adds for cars. What you saw on TV and what was really there were like apples and oranges. And not just with the car industry either. The TV adds for all kinds of items are sort of a comeon and not intended for the real world. False advertising? Yeah, right. Go into any McDonalds, Burger King, etc. and look at the photos on the wall for their food then order that. Does it even resemble the photo? How about those food store adds where they show all the produce in perfect rows, all nice and fresh and no finger nail marks. Now go to that store and look for that situation. This is really a buyers beware world.
Valued Member
United States
106 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2009  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brannenworks to your friends list
The guy has 100% feedback. I can't believe this. There should be a place where iffy ebay coin seller stuff is recorded.

Part of the problem is that ebay deliberately destroys old information on auctions. I wonder if this is so that people are forced to let sleeping dogs lie.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1082 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2009  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WpgLwr to your friends list
See he's still doing that "show the King side" and have a '45 as the other picture. I've asked him why he shows a '45 in a listing for a '46...let's see what he says.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1082 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2009  02:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WpgLwr to your friends list
Interesting. His answer, "I do not have a 1945 pictured.This is a 1946 canadian silver dollar..Maybe you need to use a magnifying glass......"

I sent him back a reply: "Yep, that's a '45. It's that obvious."
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