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Pillar of the Community
 United States
731 Posts |
The quoted text comes directly from the Secret Service website, and presumably, the Secret Service guidance derives from Title 18, Section 331 of United States Code and all revisions, references, and amendments thereof.
I am not a lawyer; and I did not specifically say anything, rather I quoted.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1882 Posts |
Quote:The only reason these things are sold is for people,scammers, to clear the COPY,REPLICA and such to make money from them. Quote:
If you think the only reason people buy these are to scam others later on... Jumping in the middle here...ready to duck if necessary. Halfwitty's statement about why they are sold (on a broad, macro level) can be true...and at the same time some individuals may purchase them with pure intentions. Although the sellers aren't selling them so people can clear the word "COPY". They are selling them (primarily, I believe) without the word "COPY" on there. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
Quote:
I would then put the onus on the buyer, the seller couldn't know exactly what the buyer had planned, it could be reasonably assumed that the buyer wanted to fill holes with coins that didn't have a copy/replica stamp until such time as he could get authentic coins. I have to disagree. IMO the number of people that buy these for legitimate reasons is a VERY small percentage of the total sales. As a side note, I could justify sales of almost any item with the above argument. After all, as the seller I had no idea the buyer would _______________________ with the ____________ I sold them. You can fill in the blanks with whatever is appropriate. |
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Valued Member
United States
436 Posts |
Quote:
As a side note, I could justify sales of almost any item with the above argument. After all, as the seller I had no idea the buyer would _______________________ with the ____________ I sold them. You can fill in the blanks with whatever is appropriate.
That is exactly my point... It has been a strong legal stand point for many many years. If the manufacturer/seller is making a product in accordance with the law (IE: telling people that the coin is a replica and not trying to pass it off as real.) and then the buyer uses said product to violate a law then the onus is on the buyer and not the manufacturer/seller. For instance, if you were to go down to a large chain auto parts store like pepboys/checker/schucks/kragen what have you.. You would find a great deal of products that are not legally allowed to be installed in vehicles in that area. It is not illegal to sell those products or to have those products but it is illegal to install those products and use them when your vehicle is in motion. Like in California it is illegal to have any colored lights on you car with the exception of white/clear and amber in the front .. red and amber in the back.. In Virginia it is illegal to have a radar detector in your car. In most states it is illegal to have under carriage lighting installed.. but no matter what state you live in you can find multi colored light inserts or covers for side marker and head lights, you can find radar detectors, and you can find under carriage lighting. The reason they can still sell those parts is because of the small amount of people that use them only for off-road and/or show cars. The same holds true with coins.. Replica/Copy coins will remain legal because of those people that buy them for reasons that do not include breaking laws. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1534 Posts |
Quote:This is precisely why I will never buy a coin on ebay or any of the other auction sites unless they are slabbed.I would rather pay a little extra from my coin dealer so I know who to punch in the nose if it turns out to be fake. I believe that is unreasonable. There are many, many fakes out there, and many people have been burned on these. However, there are not many counterfeits of relatively common coins. Throughout the years I've been collecting, I have only bought a couple of slabbed coins, and only for coins that I wanted to crack out to put in my album. I did not buy the slabs because it guaranteed the coin's authenticity. I do not know if you are or not, but if you are a new collector it is great that you buy from a local dealer. But there will come a time where there is a certain coin that you won't be able to find at your local shop, in which case you may have to rely on ebay or somewhere else. When and if that time comes, you should be able to spot a counterfeit example. And like I said, the vast majority of normal, common coins are genuine. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts |
I'm on board with Wheatguy. My focal areas of late are colonial and early Americans. I have multiple dealers close to me, yet all have little inventory. The few they do have are outrageous in asking price in comparison to the grades.
If I had wanted to buy tons of Morgans or LWCs, okay, the local dealers would suffice. However, for other focal areas, alternative venues are a necessity.
I also concur with Aladinslamp - change the law so that the "loopholed counterfeits" must be 10% larger - this REPLICA / COPY business obviously isn't working. Similar laws exist on the books pursuant to currency.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
693 Posts |
OK, here we sit again.....watching y'all debate this again........I was asked to write a "Guest Editorial" in Coin World. I did. I have no idea when it is going to be used. But when it is.....any of you reading it will know where I am coming from. Fighting/debating it here does nothing guys n girls. Go public.........get the press on it. It is your hobby and Numismatic Heritage which is getting jerked. You have to go main stream. As you can see....it only gets worse. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts |
Point taken coinsrfun. Perhaps messages to our congressional reps would be an effective next step? Found an online directory of email addresses & telephone numbers to each congressional representative: http://conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm.Perhaps a collaborative effort among CCF members could be undertaken to draft a boilerplate message that each CCF member could voluntarily send to their respective reps? Just a thought... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
Quote:
That is exactly my point... It has been a strong legal stand point for many many years. If the manufacturer/seller is making a product in accordance with the law (IE: telling people that the coin is a replica and not trying to pass it off as real.) and then the buyer uses said product to violate a law then the onus is on the buyer and not the manufacturer/seller.
For instance, if you were to go down to a large chain auto parts store like pepboys/checker/schucks/kragen what have you.. You would find a great deal of products that are not legally allowed to be installed in vehicles in that area. It is not illegal to sell those products or to have those products but it is illegal to install those products and use them when your vehicle is in motion.
Like in California it is illegal to have any colored lights on you car with the exception of white/clear and amber in the front .. red and amber in the back.. In Virginia it is illegal to have a radar detector in your car. In most states it is illegal to have under carriage lighting installed.. but no matter what state you live in you can find multi colored light inserts or covers for side marker and head lights, you can find radar detectors, and you can find under carriage lighting.
The reason they can still sell those parts is because of the small amount of people that use them only for off-road and/or show cars.
The same holds true with coins.. Replica/Copy coins will remain legal because of those people that buy them for reasons that do not include breaking laws. I understand your point. The problem with it is that all the products you mention are legal in and of themselves. If the manufacturers/sellers complied with the portion of your post that I highlighted in red I would agree with you. However, the majority of these coins are not marked as copies/replicas. Telling the buyer it's a copy/replica does not comply with the law, they must be marked. I agree that the onus is on the person that alters a legal replica/copy by removing the mark. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:So what you are saying is I can counterfeit Half Cents, cents, 2 cents, silver 3 cents, nickel 3 cents, Half Dimes, and nickels without fear of prosecution? No they would just prosecute you under a different section of the law. Quote:
If the manufacturer/seller is making a product in accordance with the law (IE: telling people that the coin is a replica and not trying to pass it off as real.) The problem is while they are legal to produce in China under Chinese law, and they are legal to ship out of the country under Chinese law, they are NOT legal to even import into this country under US law. If they are not marked they are illegal, even if they are marked REPLICA they are illegal. The legal requirements for the marking of copies is very specific and these Chinese fakes do not comply. So when you have them shipped to you it is YOU not them that has broken the law. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
you simply have to love the legality issues when it comes to the hot potatoe syndrome....
WHO gets stuck with it in the end, or sells it and its called a fake...now he's the bad guy,,,,,,almost "crack" like in nature...I only made the dope, I didn't pass it on whats wrong?
Sure there are obviously those that are Knowingly sell fakes.....but they usually have to go through all the trouble of casting or reproducing the entire product by themselves,, rather than have the product manufactured in mass productions for them....If the problem was not so prevalent in the market place we probably would not be discussing the topic.......IF they made them 10% bigger there wouldn't be a problem at all.....
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Valued Member
United States
161 Posts |
if collectors would spend one minute educating themselves out of every hour they spend crying for "someone to do something" Jinghaushei may not be in business for another ten years. his fakes are so poorly made that they dont need to be 10% larger, they dont need to be stamped REPLICA, they could be of the correct alloy, size, and weight and still not fool a person that knows even the basics of what they collect.
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
Quote:
they dont need to be stamped REPLICA, they could be of the correct alloy, size, and weight and still not fool a person that knows even the basics of what they collect.
Precisely. Add artificial wear and/or toning to the mix and to the uneducated collector, you have a "cool" coin that will look great in their collection. swcoin.ecrater.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
Quote:
they dont need to be stamped REPLICA, they could be of the correct alloy, size, and weight and still not fool a person that knows even the basics of what they collect. Assuming this statement is correct how do you explain the articles I have read online & in major publications about dealers being fooled & fakes ending up in TPG slabs? Under that logic either the articles are hoaxes, or dealers & TPG graders don't know the basics. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts |
Or the simple fact that the production of such coins is counterfeiting!
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Posted 02/23/2010 04:32 am
