Cancelling A Completed Auction ?

The listing is not the problem. The problem is the coins do not have the word "COPY" or "REPLICA" stamped into the coin. Violation of Federal Law.

Sounds as if you're jumping to conclusions on several levels as to what you believe ebay should have done or not done. After all, it's their playground, and if they tell you to take your cookies and go home ... that's the end of it.

Sounds to me like ebay is not following the regulations of the Hobby Protection Act and is making it up as they go. The scourge of Asian counterfeits meant to fool the average collector is the real problem with ebay, they are available by the bucket yet ebay decides to pull an auction for a contemporary counterfeit that is collectible in its own right(unlike the Chinese junk that is only good for target practice and lead poisoning...)

I buy counterfeits from anyone. In that respect I am an equal opportunity buyer. But ebay as a source of fakes is SUPER. I have a feedback score of over 2,800 and in my case I would bet 2,500 or more were for the purchase of COUNTERFEITS. Some were properly identified but the vast majority were NOT so identified.

If ebay checked it's records and knew what I was buying, I would have a pittiful record for being an ebay member over 10 years.

nice coins swamperbob
couldnt help but post in as it seems we collect on the same thread - counterfeit or fake coins, and w/wo "copy" stamped on it requirement, doesn't take into consideration the collector's interest

I never buy counterfeit coins with the word "copy" stamped on it, simply because, it wouldnt be a counterfeit anymore, it would be a genuine replica, just like children's play money.

Also the "copy" stamped on it "defaces" the part of the item one wants to study & learn from.

as a suggestion, ebay should set up a segment or alternative exclusive site for copies or fakes or counterfeits only, with the condition that fakes for US delivery shall be marked "copy" and those for international with option for "as-is" it would also serve as prime info source on the fakes currently moving around. The counterfeiters wouldnt have much time as the details of the latest fake they produced would be known by everyone soon

scubu You are apparently not aware that a marked counterfeit which complies with the Hobby Protection Act is allowed to be sold on ebay. The entire REPLICA section is full of them and there are no complaints. These coins can be tooled to remove the word COPY and I have seen many examples of that but ebay DOES allow the sale of marked counterfeits.

I absolutely agree with you in principle that the hobby needs protection from fraud but it is the abject failure of ebay's rules to do so and the way ebay enforces their rules that bothers me most.

I have reported fake Chinese coins until I have become tired of doing it, because ebay will take NO action on those. It is a legal activity according to ebay. That is because it is legal to make and sell counterfeits in China.

But ebay will every once in a while terminate an auction for a properly attributed counterfeit, if it is posted by a US citizen. Sellers in Canada and the UK face no sanctions. They only punish the honest sellers who know a coin is a counterfeit and SAY SO. In that case no fraud is involved PROVIDED the counterfeit is LEGAL under the Hobby Protection Act. Many counterfeits are completely legal to own and possess - FRAUD is the key issue in the law.

The real danger to the hobby are the numismatic forgeries that are worthless and are ILLEGAL. The 4R counterfeit pictured first rarely sells for under $120 and it is absolutely the MOST COMMON 4R counterfeit legally available today. It is the only period 4R counterfeit known to exist in numbers as high as 25 copies. A typical period 8R Birmingham forgery sells for 2 to 3 times what an original in comparable condition sells for. I have seen common date Mo Portrait 8Rs in VG sell for over $400 and the 2Rs sell for even more. So even if a novice accidentally won a contemporary forgery (which I doubt he ever would) he would actually be ahead of the game. So Legal period counterfeits are NOT a problem except in ebay's mind.

They do not want to police the market. It would be TOO EXPENSIVE FOR THEM TO DO SO. That is a quote from an ebay lawyer to me personally.

So ebay's concern is their BOTTOM line not the hobby.

It is the junk coin - the 10 cent copper-nickel copies that are dangerous. NOTHING EFFECTIVE HAS BEEN DONE TO STOP THEM FROM FLOWING INTO THE US BY THE THOUSANDS. ebay simply hides behind their policy and rules and profits off the sale of this junk every day of the week.

So while I agree that junk "counterfeits" should not be allowed, ebay policy is forcing most sellers of collectible counterfeits to list them blindly. At the same time, ebay rules have NO EFFECT at all on the fraudulent trade which continues unabated.

The saving grace for fellows like myself, is that we can spot valuable counterfeits and outbid the novices who are bidding as if they were real. It works but it drives an otherwise legal enterprise underground.

In the past year (51 weeks and 3 days actually, since I have been tracking all Mexican auctions on ebay), there have been 177 Counterfeit 8R coins posted on ebay. Of that number of 177, 125 were NOT IDENTIFIED as forgeries mostly to avoid ebay rules. Most sellers know, most buyers know - it has become an OPEN SECRET like gays in the military. They should call it "Don't tell, don't get terminated". Not one of the don't tell auctions was terminated by ebay.

In the same period of time, 52 auctions were posted involving properly identified counterfeits from the same period. Of that group of 52, 7 were terminated by ebay and 2 were Terminated after the auction was completed.

It is perhaps much ado about nothing to some people, but in the same period of time, I tracked 2,396 auctions involving Fraudulent Numismatic Forgeries from China NONE OF WHICH WERE TERMINATED by ebay. That number includes re-sales in the US by people who were defrauded. The average sale price hovers in the $100 to $200 range. So about a quarter million dollars in sales was involved. I have gotten over 250 of the US re-sales stopped or properly attributed! (I consider either to be a victory.) But every one of those changes was a result of seller action - NOT ebay. The Chinese sellers, by the way, either ignore me or say "Thanks for the information" and do NOTHING.

I have not even addressed here the Chinese Replica auctions which portray coins marked "COPY" or "REPLICA" in photos on ebay but which arrive WITHOUT the stamp. Several sellers photo-shop the word onto their pictures. So many of the forgeries sold in the Replica section arrive as ILLEGAL items. I tested this by purchasing a few from various Chinese merchants that I suspected of photo-shopping their pictures. Of the 20 test coins I bought this year, NOT ONE came through with the word "COPY" or "REPLICA" on it.

So ebay's overall record for stopping worthless Chinese forgeries is dismal. I am doing far more to protect the hobby than they are - and I do not profit one cent for my actions. I am just frustrated by the bobbing and weaving ebay does to avoid any responsibility to keep the market place free of fraud, while at the same time they are labelling my collecting activities as ILLEGAL.

Banning all sales from China might be a good first step - followed by a collector's committee who could review suspect coins and REMOVE all of the junk replicas. I would volunteer immediately for such a committee. Just give me a way to contact the bidders, like I used to have and I would start again on my own.

IF it is BROKEN - we need to FIX it.

jfransch I agree that is what the law says. But the 1804 Dollar was an UNAUTHORIZED striking similar to but not as illegal as the 1913 V nickels. In both instances, neither could be called "an original numismatic item" since neither date was ever issued. The coins were made in the mint by mint employees working ILLEGALLY or without proper authorization. In both cases, a small number of copies were made AND SOLD for a decent profit. The 1913 nickels were made for a PRIVATE collector. That does not to me seem like what they were referring to in the law which would be an official emination of REPLICAS of a previously manufactured coin for open sale or circulation.

My original comment was in relation to the misunderstanding that ALL counterfeits or replicas require the word "COPY" to be legal. The point was that the 1804 is a LEGAL coin without benefit of being marked just as the 4R is.

But I do agree TOTALLY with your calling them "WEASELS" however. All private manufacturers of replicas have to mark their stuff - I wonder about that exemption for governments.

Could the government start making 1889 CC dollars for sale tomorrow and NOT MARK them? How do we know they don't or won't do that in the future to make a buck?

I do know that two or three governments do keep old dies at least to some extent. I know that France does and that Austria does too. I have seen some of the Mexican dies so I know they do keep some dies as well as old minting equipment in Mexico City but it is very haphazard. I would love to know which dies are still in existence.

I believe the US does not keep dies - but do they keep hubs or galvanos? Hubs allow creation of dies and galvanos allow creation of hubs - so they are as important as the dies themselves.

Other countries I am not so certain about. Does anyone know?

Is there some law that would protect us from say a flood of 1796 US 25 cent coins? That could cut the deficit quickly if they told no one.