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 Replies: 10 / Views: 2,663 |
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
I purchased this 1823 Half in an ICG slab over a year ago. Last night I decided to remove it so I could examine and try to photograph the edge lettering. When I removed it I was shocked to see this (which had been completely coved up by the tight plastic collar in the slab):   Surely this would get a details grade from PCGS or NGC right? I questioned ICG and they said that any guarantee was voided when I opened the slab (of course, this is what I expected them to say). Obviously this is a catch-22 because the only way to not void the warranty would be for them to re-slab it and if they (the same company!) did re-slab it, would they really reclassify it as a details coin? Needless to say I'll never consider an ICG slab again! Edited by chetzler
04/18/2014 10:37 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2077 Posts |
I think they photograph every submission, so there should be a record of what it looked like before slabbing. I'd ask them to send you a copy.
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Valued Member
 United States
206 Posts |
Good suggestion! I'm composing another communication to them right now, I'll add that, thanks!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2373 Posts |
It's not uncommon to see all the TPG's grade coins with rim bumps. When you have more than one or two of size, that's when the details grade gets issued. I have MS coins from all the TPG's with a rim bump and no details issued. nlp |
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
Thanks for the insight, nlp. Do the TGPs tend to be more forgiving on older coins such as this one?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
No, PCGS would NOT surely give this a details grade. Just depends. It's a rim ding. If it's the only one, that can be a toss up. If you went by something like this, you would have to say you would never consider ANY TPG slab again. You could send it back to ICG and get the same, or perhaps the graders had an argument with their wives and they grade it one grade lower and details damaged cleaned and I hate the world. |
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
UPDATE: It seems I judged ICG too harshly. One of their graders contacted me by phone and spent several minutes discussing what he thought this was. He is pretty sure it is an artifact of the manufacturing process: when the edge lettering is put on the coin it sometimes leaves a mark where the ends of the collar meet. After thinking about it, this seemed to make sense since the defect really looks symmetric (especially on the obverse). He offered to re-examine and photograph the coin free of charge as well as send a couple of coupons to have other coins graded. He is interested in taking another look at the coin because he is writing an article on distinguishing manufacturing defects from PMD. If his explanation is correct, my disappointment is now excitement because I really love die clashes, die breaks and other "defects". This would be a very neat addition to my collection since I assume it can only occur on coins with lettered edges. What do some of the CCF members think? Has anyone ever heard of a collar leaving a mark like this? Regards, -Chris Edited by chetzler
04/21/2014 4:34 pm
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
I issued the word "collar" in my previous post, and this is not how the edge lettering was applied to these coins; a Castaing machine was used (that's not a typo, it's named for Jean Castaing). Here is a thread where philadelphian briefly describes the process: https://goccf.com/t/163812A Google search should yield an image of the machine; the image helped me to better understand how it worked. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I could see that coming from the Castaing machine. Here's a pic, originally from the Penny Lady, showing a moment which could have caused such damage:  |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
What do some of the CCF members think? Has anyone ever heard of a collar leaving a mark like this? I agree with what the grader told you in the conversation. The first thing about that that jumps out at me is whatever happened it happened a long time ago given the color is the same as the rest of the coin. The other big thing for me is just thinking about what would be capable of applying that type of force to it to cause that kind of shape. Its not a giant chunk missing and dropping it wouldnt do that, but its two smaller pieces with the middle pretty unharmed missing. From the photo it looks like theres some rough edges in it like the metal was violently removed and broke off. There just arent a lot of things capible of applying that type of force leaving a damage pattern like that especially when you consider the time frame it likely took place in. I have no problem with a TPG not giving that coin a details grade and think it would be a shame for something like that to cause a detailed rating. |
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
Thanks for your input, SsuperDdave and basebal21. This has all been quite educational for me.
Additionally, I'd like to publicly apologize to ICG for my early harsh assement. All of my correspondence with them was highly professional and they were focused on making me a happy customer. Additionally, their grader also provided some great educational information to me. I will most likely take them up on their offer to re-examin the coin.
-Chris
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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,663 |
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Posted 04/18/2014 10:54 am
