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Commems Collection Classic: 1935 Hudson, NY Sesquicentennial - Julius Guttag

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commems's Avatar
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 Posted 06/03/2024  10:40 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Within the 50-piece Type Set of classic US silver commemorative coins, three half dollars are considered the keys: the 1928 Hawaiian (European) Discovery Sesquicentennial, the 1935 Old Spanish Trail and the 1935 Hudson, NY Sesquicentennial.

Each of these coins had an authorized mintage of 10,000, making them the lowest mintage figures among the series' design types. There are multiple date/mint mark combinations and/or design varieties within the series that have lower mintage totals, but no design types are lower.

As a result, the Hudson half dollars were much sought after by collectors at the time of their issue, and continue to be among the US commemorative coins that have consistent demand (and stronger prices!) in the present-day marketplace.

During a March 1936 Hearing before the Senate Committee on Banking and Currency, coin dealer LW Hoffecker, then serving as Chairman of the American Numismatic Association ( ANA) Legislative Committee, stated "The Hudson issue was delivered on the 29th day of June, and they reported on the 2d day of July that all had been disposed of. One dealer is reported to have 7,500 of them that he bought for 95 cents a piece, but we cannot prove it." That dealer was Louis Guttag. (The regular issue price for the coin was $1.00 each plus $0.18 for registration and $0.03 postage - a total of $1.21 for a single coin.)

Guttag Bros. Logo
Commems-Collection-Classic:-1935-Hudson,-NY-Sesquicentennial---Julius-Guttag

Side Note 1: As I read through the transcript of the Hearing, I found it ironic that Hoffecker complained to Congress about the tactics of other dealers, considering his own questionable handling of US commemorative coins such as the 1935 Old Spanish Trail half dollar.

Side Note 2: Dealer Hubert Carcaba of St. Augustine, Florida is reported to have purchased 1,000 of the coins).

The 5% discount that Guttag received from the coin's sponsor (i.e., Hudson Sesquicentennial Committee) was not significant, but his ability to create an artificial scarcity in the marketplace was! Guttag was able to sell quantities to other dealers at prices above original issue and profit from the difference, as well as control the coin's general availability through the timing and volume of dealer sales.

Within the dealer community, the Hudson half dollar was often jokingly referred to as the "Guttag Half Dollar." The coins weren't immediately made available in the marketplace - in quantity - so the artificially-created "limited quantity" allowed dealers to ask excessively-high prices for the coins from the start - $8.00 and more per coin vs. the $1.00 issue price. Understandably, collectors reacted negatively and many began suggesting foul play by the coin's sponsor.

Julius Guttag was the primary driver of the Guttag Brothers' coin business. His brother, Henry, was not an avid numismatist and focused more on the securities/foreign exchange side of the business. Guttag Brothers was active in the coin business in the late 1920s, and into the 1930s. The Wall Street crash of 1929 and the ensuing Great Depression took its toll on the coin business and caused a shift in focus from "general collectors" to "specialists." (I interpret that to mean a switch to higher dollar/more profitable offerings vs. more common material at tighter margins.)

I've never heard a fellow collector or current dealer refer to the Hudson as a "Guttag Half Dollar" but I don't know anyone who was active in the hobby in the mid-1930s!

Do you have a "Guttag Half Dollar" in your collection? There's a good chance you might!

Here's my example:

1935 Hudson, NY Sesquicentennial Half Dollar
Commems-Collection-Classic:-1935-Hudson,-NY-Sesquicentennial---Julius-Guttag Commems-Collection-Classic:-1935-Hudson,-NY-Sesquicentennial---Julius-Guttag


For other of my posts about commemorative coins and medals, including others about the Hudson half dollar, see: Commems Collection.





Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 06/03/2024  3:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good read as always.
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 Posted 06/04/2024  07:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've always enjoyed Chester Beach inspired but funky design for the coin.

Where else can you find a caricature of Neptune seated backwards riding a whale while a mermaid blows on a conch shell? And the fanciful quarter moon apparently intended to indicate the otherwise unnamed ship Half Moon.

I was not aware of the specifics behind the distribution problems with these coins and appreciate your information on the Guttag Brothers involvement. Your scholarship has improved my knowledge on that topic.


Quote:
Do you have a "Guttag Half Dollar" in your collection?


I have two, and the fact that this issue was so difficult to obtain during the contemporary release time frame makes it all the more amazing (to me at least) that one of them saw enough circulation wear to arrive at this state:

1935 Hudson Sesquicentennial Half Dollar - PCGS VF35

Commems-Collection-Classic:-1935-Hudson,-NY-Sesquicentennial---Julius-Guttag
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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 Posted 06/04/2024  4:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, commems. As is usually the case when I read your posts, I learned something new today!


Quote:
...the fact that this issue was so difficult to obtain during the contemporary release time frame makes it all the more amazing (to me at least) that one of them saw enough circulation wear to arrive at this state

My first thought when seeing an example like this is that it may have been someone's pocket piece for many years. You never know, though!
Member of SPMC, FCCB, ANA and ANS.
My U.S. Classic Commemorative Complete Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278741/
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 Posted 06/25/2024  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tennis1225 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am keen to know more about the Hudson Sesqui...and you seem to be the person. Help! Tennis
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 Posted 06/25/2024  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice coin, @nickelsearcher.
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 Posted 06/25/2024  5:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Worn Out to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Commems, great information and nice example. thanks!

@nickelsearcher, beautiful and a very tough circ example. Great eye appeal
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 Posted 07/05/2024  08:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tennis1225 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello everyone. I love being Tennis1225 and seeing all this great coin talk. I am writing about the Hudson 1935 Sesqui half dollar and nearing end of my research. There are quite a few problems with the logistics of that coin that are still unsolved. I was lucky enough to be allowed to look through the entire private and congressional papers of the member who sponsored the 1935 Hudson coin bill, Congress Philip Goodwin. I did the full treasure hunt last week hoping I would get further clarification on key things. Found the coin section of his papers and it just a an original of the coin bill, some general paperwork of no value and the program for the Hudson sesqui and an invite from Hudson to him to attend events, whicih he did on July2, 1935. One key mystery is that it is possible that FDR never really "signed" the bill on May 2, 1935 as is considered gospel on this issue. Goodwin asked FDR for a copy of the bill the DAY AFTER he signed it and was told the paperwork had already left the building. I followed that trail and was told that that paper didn't exist (the signed bill). Presidents can approve bills without signing them and I think that is what happened here. Any ideas fellow coin enthusiasts? Thank you. Tennis1225
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 Posted 07/05/2024  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to make we're all on the same page, the Hudson coin bill introduced by Representative Goodwin was not the bill that President Roosevelt signed into law. When the Hudson bill was being considered in the Senate, it was combined with the bill proposing a commemorative half dollar for the 300th Anniversary of the founding of Providence, RI. It is the combined bill that FDR signed into law on May 2, 1935.

You can read about it here: 1935 Hudson, NY Sesquicentennial - Congressional Path



Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 07/05/2024  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tennis1225 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi and thanks. When Goodwin asked for a copy of the Bill on May 7, 1935 the President through his secretary Missy Lehand replied as follows: Dear Mr. Goodwin: The bill you refer to and which is your coinage bill, HR. 6457 for the City of Hudson and Providence, RI, known now as H.R 6457, An Act to authorize coinage of 50-cent pieces in commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the founding of Hudson, New York and the 300th anniversary of the founding of Providence, Rhode Island, respectively. It was passed by the Senate and the House as H.R. 6457 and was signed by the President as such on May 2, 1935 and the signed bill was immediately turned over to the Department of State for safekeeping. You should contact them." Sincerely, M.A. Lehand

Goodwin did contact the Department of State and had no luck. We contacted the Department of State and they told us that they had no idea why it would have been sent to them and they don't possess it..In Goodwin's personal papers if the Bill or Act H.R. 6457.

Now, FDR had already made up his mind by this time that commemorative coins for small cities was not a good idea. I would offer that the Bill or Act was never really signed. When the Act is delivered back to Congress by FDR aide Mr. Latta, he told both houses that the bills he was presenting had either been approved or signed. He did not say what he meant or whether the coin act was approved or signed. Also, since it is now called the Act of May 2, 1935 officially, we studied every minute of FDR's day on May 2, 1935 and there is not a single piece of evidenvce that he stopped that day to sign the bill.
Finally, the official Sesquicentennial program booklet, which was written by all the elite and politicians of Hudson and which was sent to FDR and Missy Lehand, makes zero mention of the coin AT ALL. And it was the biggest part of the celebration. It should have been front and center. Instead it is not even brought up. FDR and ER were the chief patrons of Hudson's Sesquicentennial and the program itself. Something tells me that no one wanted the coin mentioned. On July 1, 1935 (almost two weeks late) the Hudson banks out out ads that said the coins would be on sale TODAY. This was a lie. The coins were all gone. Some explanations can be pieced together. Julius Guttag high tailed it to Hudson on Saturday, June 29, met with John R. Evan sand took home a ton of them. Carcaba got some. Mayor Wise got tons. I am sure Evans did too. I have my guess list based on local stories.
FDR eventually sent a "signing" pen to Mayor Wise from Mr. Latta to Goodwin and on to Wise on May 7, 1935, at Goodwin's personal request of FDR. Latte, as executive Clerk signed the letter and said it was used to sign H.R. 6457 by FDR on May 2, 1935. I have both the letter and the pen.

Still, after all this research and rummage sales I can't find the "signed" act. Darn.

Tennis 1225
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 Posted 07/05/2024  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, it appears you have your mind made up about things, so I'm not sure if the following will have any impact...

Quote:
When the Act is delivered back to Congress by FDR aide Mr. Latta, he told both houses that the bills he was presenting had either been approved or signed. He did not say what he meant or whether the coin act was approved or signed.

Per the official records of the US Congress:
"A message in writing from the President of the United States was communicated to the House by Mr. Latta, one of his secretaries, who also informed the House that on the following dates the President approved and signed bills and a joint resolution of the House of the following titles:

On May 2, 1935:
H. R. 6457. An act to authorize the coinage of 50-cent pieces in commemoration of the one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the founding of the city of Hudson, N. Y., and of the three hundredth anniversary of the founding of the city of Providence, R. I., respectively."

Seems fairly clear, "approved AND signed" [emphasis added]...


Quote:
...we studied every minute of FDR's day on May 2, 1935 and there is not a single piece of evidenvce [sic] that he stopped that day to sign the bill.

Is it possible that an action that would take less than 60 seconds not be listed as a separate item on the President's agenda? He did meet with the Secretary of the Treasury - Henry Morgenthau - during the afternoon on May 2, 1935. Seems like a meeting during which it would be reasonable for a coin bill to be signed.


Quote:

Finally, the official Sesquicentennial program booklet, which was written by all the elite and politicians of Hudson and which was sent to FDR and Missy Lehand, makes zero mention of the coin AT ALL. And it was the biggest part of the celebration. It should have been front and center. Instead it is not even brought up.

I have a number of programs from celebrations tied to events that also featured a commemorative coin. Some mention the coin, some do not. The presence (or not) of a coin discussion in these programs is not definitive proof of anything. There are usually multiple factors at play.


BTW, do you have any connection to this poster from 2021? The Story Behind The 1935 Hudson Coin. The inquiry seems very similar.



Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
Edited by commems
07/05/2024 2:04 pm
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 Posted 07/05/2024  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tennis1225 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Utmost respect for your knowledge of this coin. Sorry if I ran around it. I did check Morgethau books and diaries and that meeting with FDR was with the Attorney General about a big issue. No mention of coin. Also, FDR often just held bills for ten days (which is allowed by law) and then they become law. It's the third option from sign or veto. Mr. Latta does not say that the list of bills presented were both approved and signed. he says this is a list of bills that are approved and signed. It could be, in one interpretation, a list of bills both signed and approved...some are signed and some are approved. Actually it is the "dates that the President approved and signed bills." I am not stuck in the mud on this or trying to be right but I do know that the White House ditched that document immediately and then pretended to ship it over to State. Goodwin had personally asked the president for the coin and it seems odd he wouldn't give him a signed bill. I think FDR didn't want that floating around Hudson or anywhere. He knew what was going on already. It is just a thesis. I would love to see the signed bill Goodwin's papers do not contain it. Odd for a Congressman not to get a signed copy. My belief is that FDR let is make itself law. But ready to be proven wrong. BTW, the Latta appearance before both Houses was 4 days past the ten day marker, which is also suspicious. Some bills are dated May 10. So the hunt goes on. The past posting you saw was from a guy that did some coin research for me a few years back. During COVID when I was locked up in China. Ughhhhh. I am ready to help in any way possible. I just thought that getting my research out there might help us all find this signed bill. I'll bet we can. Tennis1225
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 Posted 08/13/2024  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tennis1225 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Commems - Would love to interview you for my book. You are the expert and also different opinions matter. Would this be possible? Tennis1225
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