Should Properly Described Counterfeits Be Allowed On Ebay?

What is strange this ban is only for U.S. E-Bay. I try once in awhile to post a coin labeled as a contemporary ... and as you may know I get bumped sometimes - my rating at one time went from high to medium in terms of not following E-Bay policy. Its tough ... if I list a Kleeberg CC2R or GNL CC8R it may fly depending on who is looking that week - but still need to be careful and keep my rating marked as HIGH. Its stopping the Chinese crap to a large degree but they are still posted on foreign E-Bay sites. Normally when I sell its to promote a series once in awhile or to sell a lower grade duplicate ...

John Lorenzo
United States

A lot of great ideas and thoughts so far. Thanks to everyone - keep them coming. I can see that the issue is approached differently by different types of collectors - which is as it should be.

A couple clarifications need to be expressed at the outset.

The EMA group I am part of (at least as now set up) is for US ebay ONLY. It has been months since I have gotten any other referrals from Canada or elsewhere. When I started, the manager in charge covered all of the English speaking ebay world. That was changed to North America and UK within weeks of my start and was later reduced further to just the US. We (EMRs) are not informed about internal management changes but the work flow and where it comes present obvious clues.

I clearly understand that the higher up you go in the management structure of any big company the fewer details are heard or understood by the decision makers. So simplicity is the KEY at upper levels. That is why I am trying to craft a VERY brief ( - me brief) statement that would not alter the expressed policies of ebay but would allow the EMR groups - the "experts" - to make case by case exceptions for properly described fully legal collectable CCCCs. Since EMRs are now more locally focused the various laws and restrictions could be followed for the POSTING site. That way ebay US would follow US law. Countries with laxer laws like Spain or China could be restricted from selling to the US. I know that is already done with posts to Spanish ebay using "falso de epoca" or "moneda falsa" descriptions.

I think the focus of what the exceptions should be is best left with the well documented CCCC types because the historical case is most clear for those.

There are some policy issues that are out of reach at present. One such policy is that coins marked COPY - even though they are acceptable under the USA HPA - are banned if they are similar in size, weight and design to original coins. The reason was the numerous proven instances where the word COPY was photo-shopped onto pictures of numismatic forgeries and the coins actually arrived unmarked. That policy is unlikely to change and should NOT change in my opinion because of downside risk - copies made since 1974 (those legal under HPA) tend to be a far larger threat than benefit to the hobby/business.

There is also an outright ban on clad bars and rounds made to resemble items like the 1984 Englehard Prospector pointed out above. This extends to generic or otherwise unknown designs on bars EVEN if marked. That too is a ban I have no dispute with at all. A clad ounce bar is more of a threat than a legitimate numismatic item.

Regarding lengthy and complex descriptions of which numismatic category a coin seeking exemption would fall under - I would prefer simplicity there as well with references to written sources preferred. Contemporary Counterfeit - (Riddell # or Kleeberg # or Davignon # etc) I can even see allowing Riddell like or Kleeberg type or possible Davignon. A description of Counterfeit uncertain origin works for me because then the EMRs could review and make the decision in any event.

Counterfeits of any kind posted as genuine items would have to be modified to alter the verbal description based on the EMR review. About 97% of the time (using my statistics) the coin would be removed anyway.

I view this "policy" as essentially internal to the EMR group and NOT one published in the general rules of ebay. The only modification of the published rules would be a brief note that ebay reserves the right, but is not obliged to allow exceptions to the rules on a case by case basis in the event of what ebay considers to be, in its sole discretion, a significant historical interest.

In addition, I see the need for a policy (or enforcement of an existing policy) that allows for quick termination of FRAUD based on descriptions. A clear photo is great (should be mandatory) but a written warning is equally important. There needs to be a policy that makes simple FRAUD a basis for removal all alone. This too would be at EMR discretion.

Right now the policy on descriptions reads :



Tagged onto the end of a line that starts with Replica coins - the 4 words "must be accurately described" can be overlooked. It should stand alone.

I think that Tom in the last post has expressed what I have felt for years and what seems to be echoed by the majority of collectors who have studied the issue.




That is what I am trying to correct.

We will never win on every nuance to this topic but if we can get the most valuable items allowed on ebay all sides - collectors - sellers - and even ebay will benefit.

I was wondering if interest was as low regarding this subject as the voting totals seem to indicate. There have been over 500 views of the post but only 35 votes. At the present rate that indicates that less than 1 in every 10 members has an opinion?

This is very interesting. The thread brought up angles I never even new existed. I also didn't realize how complex the issue is. I wonder how many collectors are aware of the complexity I know as a novice collector it's beneficial to know and be aware of the breath of the issue. I'm in total agreement with Tom Goodheart's post. I'm wondering for a broader audience and more responses, it would be better to have the thread moved to the main forum. Especially since this affects all collectors and not just of a few countries. I'm a Canadian coin collector, so I'm pretty much in the Canadian forum or reading the main. I know we are very active in the Canadian forum, discussing the modern fakes from china, and reporting ebay auctions. I just reported a seller with a bunch of Chinese counterfeits yesterday. I even got an update email from ebay, stating they found more fakes on the account than I reported. Please ad a thread in the Canadian forum!! We have a wonderful individual Mike Marshall, who's a one man crusade on educating collectors and getting counterfeits removed from ebay. Mike was instrumental in getting ebay to craft it's new policies on counterfeits. Again, I never would of found this thread, except I got bored, and decided to check out other areas of the forum. I basically stick to the Canadian and main forum areas. This could be true of other people, and so they would miss this topic!

kbbpll You raise multiple issues some of which a coin guy like myself can not address.

You ask first



I see that as a non-issue. Details in any large business stay with lower level workers and managers - NEVER BOSSES.

Remember all I am doing as an outsider is to attempt to suggest a new approach that could solve a "numismatic" problem while at the same time potentially increasing sales minimally but at no added cost. How it is received if at all is unknown. I am just looking at the issue from the perspective of a collector of things (CCCCs) which are completely legal to own, buy and sell but which have been caught up in a "semantics" catch-22.

The issue comes down to understanding the two terms counterfeit and fraud are just not the same. A 1799 8 Reale that is not genuine but which is sold as genuine is a case of fraud. The item is misrepresented resulting in the buyer being defrauded. Counterfeiting law does not apply to that case because the item is not now monetary.

On the other hand if someone tries to sell US $100 bills he made on his copying machine - that would be both fraud and counterfeiting. Counterfeiting always carries along with it an element of fraud but the reverse is not true. Fraud can occur without the coin being a counterfeit - doctored coins are a good example.

I am stressing the need for precision in terms relating to counterfeiting and fraud. Looking at all non genuine coins as "Counterfeits" is very lazy and imprecise. It is time numismatists get their act together in this regard. We need to pull together not apart on this kind of issue. Wasting our time on legal Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits that no longer are monetary is a WASTE of time that could be used better otherwise. Time wasted on contemporary circulating counterfeit coins actually impedes progress on removing actual fraud (numismatic forgeries).

Your second conclusion expressed below is simply not correct.




The most dangerous forgeries are actually the ones that draw no attention. Fake silver rounds or fake 1921 Morgan silver dollars are two very good examples. These are actually more common than the forgeries of rare coins but do not draw a lot of review. They are also the kind of things that the buyer tends to eat the cost of. This is likely motivated by pride (I got fooled), a sense that nothing can be done anyway or who will listen to a claim for a few dollars.

The other areas of ebay like Prada bags (I hope they make bags I don't really know) is really a case of copyright infringement and that is way out of my league. It is another type of fraud.

The problem in any transaction is always FRAUD. That is why we deal with people we know to be honest.

I voted for "Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits are allowable" because I'm interested in limes denari which circulated at the extremities of the Roman Empire and which are thought of as coins of necessity. They hover in that grey area between contemporary circulating counterfeits and pseudo-official coinage.

To have a complete ban on "counterfeits" would remove them from a marketplace, though admittedly I would rarely buy them from the US ebay site.

Swamperbob, I see this more as a Main Coin Forum topic than a World Coin Forum topic; the former can include the latter subjects, after all. We're going to move it and see if we can get you some more attention.