1832 Zs (Zacatecas) 8 Reales

Lucky Cuss That is a great summation and if we helped you learn that great. Now we need to convince the rest of the old school dealers that simple science can work to the benefit in the long run.

A few days ago, a nationally known numismatist with whom I do business showed me another 1833 Zs he'd just acquired as past of a larger group of 8R's (these being really not within his field of expertise). The specimen exhibited the characteristic "barred" 3's pictured above. Weight was right at 27 grams, and I judged it to be VF. Its appearance was a bit "funky" but my impression was that this might be due to its being yet another example struck with genuine dies but debased in composition to some degree.

Even with his evaluating it as having been cleaned, he was pricing it at $100, which I thought too dear for what now seems to me to be an awfully common First Republic issue.

I have also noticed the number of 1833, 1834 and 1835 Zs coins that are debased. They are also connected with very worn and/or damaged dies in many cases. I wonder if it is a second case of undefaced worn dies being sold as scrap metal. In 1835 many of the debased examples have a reversed rim design with one die in the mill being mounted backwards. If this correlation proves to be accurate then the "error" of reversing the dies may just be a way for the forgers to identify their own work so that they could refuse to take them.

I think it is a topic that remains open with no fixed answer. The debased coins were fraudulent whether they were made in the mint or outside it. They are similar to the 1833-1839 Go debased coins and the 1829 Ga copper center coins. Definitely bad (debased) but struck with apparently genuine dies.

Only the 1832, 34 and 1836 Do coins are attributed solely to outside forgers by most experts. It is a topic I plan to explore more in my new book on Cap and Ray 8R counterfeits.

The 3 punch with the bar is clearly a match for the one used at the mint. That establishes that the working dies were originally made in the mint shop or were at least made with a genuine 3 punch. It does not establish where the coin was actually struck.

One theory advanced was that when the mint changed hands in 1836 from the State of Zacatecas to the central government of Mexico - that the die tools (punches used to make the dies) were sold off. The 3 illustrated in "Resplandores" for the 1836 8R is the new 3 variety associated with the new die style.