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Moderator
 United States
188374 Posts |
You seemed to have gotten my reference.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11884 Posts |
Quote:It is interesting that the word "Federal" does not appear at all in the U.S. Constitution. That term appears throughout the 85 essays penned by Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison between October 1787 and May 1788 under the pen name of "Publius" in support of the new U.S. Constitution in a set of writings known as the Federalist Papers. In the introduction to the Federalist Papers written by Alexander Hamilton in 1787 at the approximate age of 32, he writes at the top of Federalist Paper No. 1 published in the New York newspaper Independent Journal in 1787: "To the People of the State of New York: AFTER an unequivocal experience of the inefficiency of the subsisting federal government, you are called upon to deliberate on a new Constitution for the United States of America." https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-p...per-25493264Here we see primary evidence where Alexander Hamilton, a founder of our nation, asserts unequivocally in the first sentence of the Federalist Papers that the government that existed before the U.S. Constitution was a federal government. Therefore the 1787 Fugios must be federal issues. Note also that in this one quoted sentence, Hamilton also refers to a new Constitution for the United States of America, suggesting that there was an old Constitution which could only be the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. This is consistent with Fritz's assertion in the earlier post here: Quote:" The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union was the first constitution of the United States." - Fritz, Christian G. (2008). American Sovereigns: The People and America's Constitutional Tradition Before the Civil War. New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 131. ISBN 978-0-521-88188-3; noting that "Madison, along with other Americans clearly understood" the Articles of Confederation "to be the first federal Constitution".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Const...nited_States IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/07/2022 10:49 am
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Valued Member
United States
461 Posts |
It's Not My Fault. I didn't make the term up. (Childish blame shift).
NS
Great deep dive for the Hamilton quote. No matter how I squeeze it, I don't see any way to interpret it other than federal being synonymous with national.
Hamilton clearly distinguishes between the existing federal (i.e. national) government under an existing federal Constitution, the Articles, ( constitution) I, and a proposed federal constitution, The Constitution of the United States of America, (constitution 2). So we have two different federal constitutions first under the Articles, and second under the US Constitution. The Fugios were issued under federal government I and the 1792 half dimes/1793 coinage was issued by federal government II.
I have always understood the first federal period to be pre-Federal, because it was pre-Constitutional Given the context of Hamilton's quote, he seems to simply be saying a federal government of the United States is a national government. I have no idea where I learned the concept pre-federal to refer to government by the Continental Congress, but I have come across it many times over the years.
Ah, nomenclature. I pulled out Gordon S. Wood's monumental Creation of the American Republic, which I recommend to all, and looked quickly and unsuccessful for a pre-federal discussion. I didn't find what I was looking for, but I think it's time to read it again. In the Introduction, Wood says that his most difficult task was understanding what the meaning of words used back then was and the meaning of the same words today. That should leave enough ambiguity to occupy scholars and courts for a long time.
After this discussion, I think the "pre-federal" term should be jettisoned and replaced with the more accurate "Pre-Republic." But I lack the influence to pass it on to someone important who will champion it.
So, I grudgingly admit that PCGS has a historical basis for its federal issue decision on Fugios, although I still don't think it was the same national government that established the US mint that began operating continuously since 1792/1793.
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Valued Member
United States
461 Posts |
Out of curiosity I looked up pre-federal in Wikipedia. Several entries, none of which I read. The first entry was prepared by some current federal government historian/employee who calls the Confederation period pre-federal. So the concept is out there.
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5173 Posts |
Quote:
I have no idea where I learned the concept pre-federal to refer to government by the Continental Congress, but I have come across it many times over the years. In terms of coinage, I'm used to "pre-federal" being a more modern (politically correct?) term for what is traditionally called "colonial" coinage - most of which had been issued in 1785-88, well after the "colonies" became states. Of course we can't exactly call the Fugio cent "colonial", nor the Continental dollars, the Nova Constellatio patterns, or a few other edge cases (e.g. the so-called Bar Cent), on the account of them being issued for the USA in general (post-independence) rather than any specific state. If "pre-federal" doesn't work either then what are they supposed to be called? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11884 Posts |
Federal or national coinage.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11884 Posts |
There are some dates and periods that are important to our early U.S. history:
1774 - On September 5, the First Continental Congress was convened for 12 of the 13 colonies to collectively address abusive taxes from the British Crown. Georgia was missing because it was fighting with the Native Americans and was dependent on Britain for military support.
1775 - On May 10, the Second Continental Congress (2CC) was convened shortly after the outbreak of the American Revolutionary War. This was the de facto national government of the 13 colonies until July 4, 1776. On June 14, 1775, the 2CC created the Continental Army and named G. Washington its commander-in-chief.
1776 - On July 4, 1776 our nation was born when we declared independence from the British Empire.
1781 - The 2CC drafted the wartime Articles of Confederation in 1777 but it was not ratified and effective until March 1, 1781. This document set forth the form of our government but was largely ineffective after the War. In 1781, the 2CC was disbanded and the Confederation Congress took over to govern our nation under the Articles of Confederation.
1783 - The Treaty of Paris ends the American Revolutionary War. Ben Franklin, John Jay and John Adams represented the 2CC in negotiating the end of the War which recognized the Independence of the U.S.
1789 - On March 4, 1789, the U.S. Constitution became effective and the Continental Congress was dissolved and replaced by the U.S. Congress.
Although there was a lot written about the ineffectiveness of the Articles of Confederation, the founders through the Continental Congresses were able to win a war against the greatest power in the world, declare independence against it, and avoid being hung on gallows for treason against that great power.
July 4, 1776 to March 1, 1781. The Second Continental Congress is the Federal government of the United States of America, but operated without a document that lays out the powers and limitations of the national government. This period is entirely while the Revolutionary War is being fought.
March 1, 1781 to March 4, 1789. The Confederation Congress is the Federal government of the United States of America, operating under the Articles of Confederation, a document that laid out the powers and limitations of the national government. This period is initially while the Revolutionary War is being fought, but inadequacies cropped up as the government shifted to peace time governance.
March 4, 1789 forward. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land and the nation is governed under the laws and institutions that the Constitution created.
All three periods had a national or federal government for important, even existential reasons. Only two of these periods had a document laying out the form of our national government. Wartime exigencies precluded deeper thinking about how our government ought to operate.
In my view, the entire period from the birth of our nation to today is part of the federal period in our country.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/07/2022 5:52 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11884 Posts |
@Sharkman - I think you are right that a lot of confusion stems from imprecise and illogical language.
Federalism refers to a form of government where there is a separate national government, and separate layers of state, county, city, township and other smaller local governments. The entire system with its multiple layers should be the federal government.
But in our country we call the national layer of government the federal government. National government would be more apt.
In my view, we had a federal system of government with national and state layers since July 4, 1776. The national layer of our government in the form of the 2nd Continental Congress raised the Continental Army and issued Continental Currency. It also sent envoys, Franklin and Jefferson, to develop alliances and raise money abroad for our cause.
Federal is a misnomer because it should refer to the entire system of government at all levels and I would prefer national coinage or currency. But I can't even argue effectively for people to stop calling coins bearing dates after we won the Revolutionary War, colonial coinage. Habits of a lifetime are hard to break, even in the face of logic.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
As a former debate team member many years ago it is refreshing to see a polite, well-reasoned discourse on a divisive issue instead of vitriol and toxicity.
Good job CCF.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Valued Member
United States
461 Posts |
NS
Thanks for taking the time to prepare your detailed chronology. Thanks also for your political science explanation of the nature of a federal government. Those concepts are all new to me.
Paralyse: This is really interesting and stimulating stuff and I think we have all learned from it. I have enjoyed the discussion.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I noticed yesterday in their US price guide that the fugio cent is listed alone under "Federal Contract Coinage." I'm not sure if that's new; I don't go there that much and I generally scroll quickly to the series I'm interested in. I notice Colonials is split up into pre-1776, post-1776, etc. I'm not sure if anything changed there either. Anybody?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
1789 - On March 4, 1789, the U.S. Constitution became effective and the Continental Congress was dissolved and replaced by the U.S. Congress.
But was the Continental Congress dissolved? Once 9 states ratified the Constitution it became effective (even though the Articles required unanimous consent), but was the Constitution active for just the states that had ratified it of all the states including those that hadn't ratified it? Or were the other four states still bound by the Articles until they ratified the Constitution? Were there two countries or one country and four independent states? (The last of the 13 states ratified the Constitution in 1791) |
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Moderator
United States
188374 Posts |
Less that two weeks into 2022 and we already have what might be the most interesting topic of the year.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11884 Posts |
Quote:
But was the Continental Congress dissolved? Once 9 states ratified the Constitution it became effective (even though the Articles required unanimous consent), but was the Constitution active for just the states that had ratified it of all the states including those that hadn't ratified it? Or were the other four states still bound by the Articles until they ratified the Constitution? Were there two countries or one country and four independent states? (The last of the 13 states ratified the Constitution in 1791) In my view we have had one country since July 4, 1776. The Constitution's ratification was an agreement about the form of our government going forward, not whether we had a country. Most Americans believe that our nation was born on July 4, 1776. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/10/2022 4:32 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11884 Posts |
The birth of our nation began with these words.
"The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America...
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
Declaration of Independence. July 4, 1776
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Posted 01/07/2022 10:48 am
