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Someone's Funny Coin Listing, Not Marcus Aurelius And Probably Photoshop?

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louisvillekyshop's Avatar
United States
1303 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2025  09:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maridvnvm:

To quote you first: " But what if we were to find coins where they didn't remove the coin from the first strike to insert a new blank before a second strike is made? What would this look like? We would expect a coin with a strong obverse strike or even evidence of a slight double strike on this obverse if the coin had shifted slightly on the obverse die and then evidence of two dies on the reverse.... Do we see these...? Yes. The coin above is one such coin"

Back to this coin in question, using your analysis. 1. There is a first strike with a reverse die in place. 2. The coin stays firm in the obverse position, not shifting at all. And a new reverse die is placed to strike plus a new blank die is set. 3. There is a strike. 4. You end up with the original coin that had a reverse from the first die and it's own original strike reverse having been in contact with a blank. Not sure what the blank could do to that reverse image. 5. The new blank would end up with a mirror reversed obverse image if the top coin left behind functioned in the obverse position and the lower new obverse would be whatever that new reverse was to be.

So that is my confusion and I know I must be missing something in this analysis of your scenario.
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maridvnvm's Avatar
United Kingdom
2099 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2025  10:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here no new blank was placed and the previously struck coin is still in place.
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louisvillekyshop's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 01/25/2025  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maridvnvm;

Sorry, I read that incorrectly. So we are back to where we started. When you say about the reverse we should see: "evidence of two dies on the reverse.".... either the first strike or the second strike would show the standing emperor who is clasping hands with Concordia in both dies used. I don't see that at all. Maybe a cracked half of the first die with Concordia only and then they replace the die with a full one and somehow the Emperor standing just does not show up? The angle of the strike? Because if there were two full dies involved, each with a clear Emperor standing reaching out his hand to Concordia, and two full strikes on this flan, this left no image. Either under the new Concordia from the second strike from her on top of him or over the Concordia from the second strike of the Emperor on top of the first Concordia. And that has been what has bothered me from the beginning.
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maridvnvm's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2025  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you look at the reverse of my example above you can see that from about 11 o'clock to 5 o clock is the strike from one reverse die and from 5 o'clock to 11 o'clock the strike from the second reverse die.
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maridvnvm's Avatar
United Kingdom
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 Posted 01/26/2025  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see that people are not persuaded by my hypothesis of what has happened to this coin. I will leave you with another coin where something similar has occurred. This time a sestertius owned by Blake Davis.

The reverse mixes two very different types.... Victory advancing and ADVENTVI AVG FELICI-SSIM-O, Emperor on horseback right, raising right hand, holding reins, soldier to right

Someone's-Funny-Coin-Listing,-Not-Marcus-Aurelius-And-Probably-Photoshop?

Someone's-Funny-Coin-Listing,-Not-Marcus-Aurelius-And-Probably-Photoshop?

I will back off now.
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MetDet71's Avatar
United Kingdom
1563 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2025  08:38 am  Show Profile   Check MetDet71's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add MetDet71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
maridvnvm. That is a very good explanation of what could possibly have happened to the OP's coin.
Thank you for putting your time into this, it's really appreciated.
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louisvillekyshop's Avatar
United States
1303 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2025  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maridvnvm:

When you say "If you look at the reverse of my example above you can see that from about 11 o'clock to 5 o clock is the strike from one reverse die and from 5 o'clock to 11 o'clock the strike from the second reverse die." I could not agree more. And when I flip your last example I do see the SC below the emperor on horseback as well as the front hoof of the horse coming out of Victories shoulder. So I see evidence of both strikes and the full die of each. My issue of the coin in question, with the other side of these reverse dies having no evidence of being there, are just my personal issues with the coin. By the way, here is another coin of the same dealer. I think it is quite real. But tooled and patina reapplied? Just curious.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255016115060
Edited by louisvillekyshop
01/26/2025 6:40 pm
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Novicius's Avatar
United Kingdom
1168 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2025  06:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Novicius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A most interesting topic, and it made me take another look at this Caracalla Tet where the top left quadrant of the reverse is apparently reproduced on the lower right of the coin.
Someone's-Funny-Coin-Listing,-Not-Marcus-Aurelius-And-Probably-Photoshop?
Initially I had assumed that the double strike on the reverse had been made from the same die. On a closer look it appears that a second die was involved. The wing does appear to be of a slightly different design, but the main difference is the lettering in way of the wreath. In the top left quadrant the P and the X are on either side of the wreath, and in the lower right quadrant the P and the X are before the wreath.

Quote:
A range of experimental archeology has been performed over the years to understand how Roman coins were produced. From this we can conclude that the generally the obverse die was engraved and set in an anvil and the reverse die was set into a punch. Blanks were created and placed on the obverse die in the anvil and the punch was struck with a hammer to impact the images from the dies onto the blank. That is all fairly straight forward. It has been noted in these experiments that if you have a single pair of dies and you start trying to operate at speed that the reverse die starts to overheat and crack or mushroom. These experiments led to further experiments with different strike rates etc. which let to an experiment where two reverse dies were mounted on a yoke and these dies were alternated between strikes. This let to the die being able to cool between strikes sufficiently that the cracking and mushrooming lessened significantly.

This explanation from @maridvnvm shows how the areas could differ, so thanks @maridvnvm for the research highlighting this.
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