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 Replies: 1,279 / Views: 148,936 |
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
Thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated! And daltonista, your example is absolutely stunning, wow! As others have shown, it seems to blow even the most highly graded specimens out of the water. Love that you can clearly see the filing in the fields which, as I take it, was done to aid with the "worn" appearance. I have only ever been able to find the following reference on the North American Token in an article written for The Numismatist, March 1978 (linked below). The author attributes the token to the Irish engraver William Mossop Jr. on the basis of letter punch linkages with other tokens. He assigns a mintage date of 1818-1819 on the basis of similarities with other contemporary Irish tokens, and some sketchier claims (eg. perceived similarities to the Ships Colonies & Commerce series which were then believed to be minted 1814-1820). However, assuming that the antedating was to avoid Canadian importation laws, that would imply the mintage date being 1820 or later, as pointed out by Wade earlier, if I'm not mistaken. The Numismatist (March 1978): https://ia801605.us.archive.org/2/i...978March.pdfThe 2015 Charlton guide states that the token was struck in Dublin c. 1825 but provides neither a source nor further information. I am surprised that this enigmatic piece has not gotten more attention, especially with its curiously unique inscription of 'North America' and the distinctive antedating. Of further interest is its similarity to Breton 894 (NS-24). Accordingly, they are the first two listings in Courteau's Non-Local Tokens. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
...and speaking of NS-24, blargish, I just happened to have one sitting in a box maybe three feet away from the scanner. The little inset scan below the token itself shows the die pitting that explains the chewiness around the date...all of that is raised metal. (Maybe copper, maybe brass...how can I tell?)BTW, for me this is W2030, an Ireland Non-Local in my "real" collection, which comprises the British copper and silver token series of 1811-20. That field includes a pretty significant "Anglo-Canadian" segment, which explains my presence in this forum, although it's a kind of sidelight for me. That W in my catalog number signifies "Withers," or The Big Green Book, to which Charlton helpfully cross-references for the tokens that appear in both books; Withers does that only sporadically, for some reason entirely unknown to me. Enjoy!  
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
Dalton,
another near mint state token issue that most people would assume is VF,
what else do you have hiding ?!?!
as far as brass or bronze - it can be impossible to determine without an XRF scan.
brass or copper is a little easier (I believe your 1781 is brass which would put it in another level of rariety)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
Wade, VF is exactly what I was thinking for that NS-24...and you're calling it near-MS? Oy! I've got a lot to learn, but again my deficit comes from not eyeballing enough of them and not keeping track of how "professionals" are grading them.
I'll have to focus more on this little Anglo-Canadian subspecialty of mine, I guess, but the current plan is for my dear wife, after I've shuffled off this mortal coil, to just pass that all on to DNW for the bulk of my collection (British) and whatever auction house I choose for the Canadian side, probably Spink or Heritage...anyone got recommendations? I think Heritage has been doing a great job with the Doug Robins material. (Hi, Randy!)
Meanwhile, you have questions, Wade, so I have answers!
what else do you have hiding ?!?!
Got plenty of good stuff, Wade, but I need to use them to start a few "quality posts." Gotta get my numbers up, apparently, so I can become an exalted member with all those associated perks. In preparation for that, I scanned two more tokens this morning for future posts, both Canadian ships, one of them a crudely struck type, so watch out for those.
After I post those, I'll do some of my (many) British stars, just to figure out how many other Davis/Withers/Dalton collectors there might be out there among CCF members. Not many is my hunch, as last week I posted a couple of Dalton silver hyper-rarities from a current DNW auction and that attracted close to 200 readers but only three actual replies. Not sure what to make of that, so I figure a few more posts will tell me whether I should make the effort at all.
as far as brass or bronze - it can be impossible to determine without an XRF scan.
Any ideas on where I can find someone to do XRF on a handful of tokens? I'm in a pretty high-tech area, so maybe I should be looking for a commercial spectroscopy lab of some sort? Or would that be part of a PCGS or NGC slabbing process? (Naaahhh...what am I thinking? They don't even note edge and die axis varieties!)
Best to all ~
Tom
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
Tom (Dalton) get your post count up and you will be able to message directly with member SPP-ottowa, he has access to an XRF at work and sometimes is kind enough to zap other members' coins. As for your 1820, here is mine in XF45. Another issue that falls under it's own rules for grading. The center of the sails are always non-existant, and the figure holding the harp suffered from almost no 3D relief. Combined with a soft strike and it's easy to see why most would grade this F on first glance.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
Whoa! If yours is XF, Wade, then I'd have to agree that mine's a gem BU, ho ho!
I notice both show that crudification under the exergue, toward the left. Must have been contagious.
I'm off to start a new topic somewhere!
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
Some time ago I commented on Wade's NS-24. I mentioned that I believe Wade's token to be MS. I am still of that opinion. Due to the lack of detail many graders undergrade this variety.
One must determine whether the lack of detail is due to wear, soft-strike, a light-weight placnhet, or a poorly designed die. Typically wear is first noted on the rim, beading, denticles, and legend. This area is what is handled the most. One does not pick up a coin from the centre, but from the edge.
Both Wade's and Daltonista's ensamples shew pristine beads and sharp letters. Where is evidence of 'wear" ? The stones atop the ground are crisp. The 'rat-lines' to the rigging are crisp. etc.
Daltonista's ensample exhibits more detail and I suspect if one can weigh both ensamples, Wade's is lighter, lacking sufficient medal mass to sate the die-strike.
Interestingly, Wade's ensample exhibits bold vertical lines below each wave. Again this shew no wear.
enough for now.
doug
Edited by colonialtokens
05/15/2020 5:59 pm
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
A pair of Non-Local tokens that I picked up over the past little while: Breton 1002 and 1007. Br 1002 complements my interest in the Ships Colonies & Commerce series by having a reverse die linkage with Lees 8. The die was clearly in need of some love by the time it was used to strike Br 1002... The small size of Br 1007 surprised me as, even after my readings, I had never realized that it was actually a farthing! Br 1002 | LC-58A1  Br 1007 | LC-59B(1?)  Now, if only I had the obverse of 1002 with the reverse of 1007...  |
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Valued Member
Canada
221 Posts |
Quote:
Wade: As for your 1820, here is mine in XF45.
Another issue that falls under it's own rules for grading.
The center of the sails are always non-existant, and the figure holding the harp suffered from almost no 3D relief. Combined with a soft strike and it's easy to see why most would grade this F on first glance. Unlike Colonialtokens, I don't believe this token is uncirculated (If I'm not mistaken, I believe this token is slightly convex, hence the lack of apparent wear on the contours of the coin). Too much detail is missing on the obverse (Side with the year). I have about twenty copies in my "image bank", and most of them have a major weakness, but anything like that. However, EF-45 seems quite accurate to me, maybe AU-50 if I'm optimistic. But this is the kind of coin where my mind might change if I examined it in person. I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
05/16/2020 11:03 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
(seller's pics) too bad about the slash to George's cheek, but for $10 it was worth it just for the clip  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
A couple of my spread eagles for Memorial Day in the U.S. Not gems, but nice feathers, huh? I know most collectors focus on the breast, but my "grading eyes" are drawn primarily to the neck on the 1815. (The mottled coloring of both tokens is just the way lustre is captured by my cheap Canon scanner.)  
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Moderator
 United States
190060 Posts |
Nice examples!  |
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
That's a really nice 1814! I've had a hard time finding them in anything near that condition, unlike the 1815 which I have an example of in my collection. I have posted about this token before and still need to send it off to ICCS.  I am confused by the assertion in Charlton that the 1814 and 1815 dated tokens, along with those dated 1813 that were not struck over Guppy tokens, are antedated imitations c. 1825. As I understand, the original 1813 token was issued by a merchant from Boston named Nye, on whose family's estate was discovered a large hoard of uncirculated 1815 tokens c. 1920 (as stated in Charlton as well as a Jan/Feb 2006 issue of the Ontario Numismatist.) It appears to follow that all tokens were struck by the same firm with no reason to suggest that the later issues were antedated. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
Well, blargish, your Spread Eagle is a whole lot prettier than mine! I haven't delved much into the origin of these tokens, but I'll paste in below what Courteau had to say about them in his May 1924 Numismatist coverage of the Non-Locals:  Will look forward to hearing the verdict from ICCS! Tom
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
Tom, thank you for the reference! I would guess Courteau is referring to comments made in McLachlan's 1915 monograph "Money of Canada from a Historical Standpoint", a short read which I would definitely recommend to anyone who hasn't come across it. Fingers remain crossed for the grading
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Posted 05/11/2020 10:23 am
