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 Replies: 63 / Views: 5,726 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11881 Posts |
"The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union was the first constitution of the United States."- Fritz, Christian G. (2008). American Sovereigns: The People and America's Constitutional Tradition Before the Civil War. New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 131. ISBN 978-0-521-88188-3; noting that "Madison, along with other Americans clearly understood" the Articles of Confederation "to be the first federal Constitution".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Const...nited_StatesThe Articles of Confederation were birthed while the American Revolution was being fought and were inadequate in many ways. That was the reason why the founders replaced it with the U.S. Constitution in 1789. But this did not mean that from 1776 to 1789 we did not have a nation nor a national government. We had both before the U.S. Constitution and that government during this 13 year period was a federal government with the power to issue money as evidenced by the issuance of continental currency and power to commission the private production of official U.S. copper coinage as evidenced by the fugio cents.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/06/2022 03:54 am
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Valued Member
 United States
461 Posts |
NS
I think we agree on everything but the semantic issue of whether the "federal" period began earlier than the Constitution's effective date. Along with the Articles of Confederation, Each of the 13 States also had its own Constitution before the Constitutional Convention, which was formally called to improve and revise the Articles of Confederation, but after months of negotiations ended up junking them and starting over using the various state constitutions for ideas and inspiration.
I have always believed and understood that everything pre-Constitutional was from the Confederation government, not the later formed Federal government. I believe that because the Federal government with workable power over the nation and the states began with the Constitution, and, as has been observed, the attempt to govern a nation of the several states under the Articles was a failure because the Continental Congress lacked legislative, executive and judicial power. The USA was a nation without a workable central government.
The Constitution saved the United States of America from crumbling under the provisional, but inadequate, Revolutionary War government that achieved independence from Britain. So I consider the Republic and the Federal government to be creatures of the Constitution.
But you are correct that the Confederation government was a national government. It operated with unquestioned authority in international affairs, but it lacked the power to sustain a perpetual union internally after the common interest of independence from Britain was achieved.
Fugio coppers are certainly creations of the national government under the Continental Congress, as was the paper money and scrip it issued, and the millions of dollars of national debt it incurred. I see them as American, but pre-federal. I think you see them as American and therefore federal.
I compliment you on your historical knowledge of the era. I think we are both kindred spirits in that regard. The book writing academics in the area often disagree on many points, both important and arcane. I have enjoyed considering your points of view. Like the professional scholars, we seem to be in agreement on the main and most important points, while seeing some of the details differently. And the issuance of Fugio coppers is certainly in the details arena.
Federal, or pre-federal, the Fugio copper is an important issue I would love to add to my collection some day.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
To me, all of this is just picking a different definition of "federal" and then calling it "groundbreaking" for the hype. It doesn't change what the coins are or the history of them, which I assume is well-known by now to any specialists. Funny that there isn't a single forum discussion over there about this.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11881 Posts |
I think this has been one of the more pleasant discussions in an often contentious topic in history. The founding fathers fought, often bitterly on many, often divisive issues. I think thist is mainly due to your very considerate and kind way in which you have conducted this discussion - kudos. It was a pleasure to have an online conversation with you on this topic and wish that every conversation with a disagreement were this cordial.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11881 Posts |
I think the 1783 Nova Constellatio Coppers struck in England were the first commissioned US federal coinage. The original Philadelphia strikes were clearly patterns.
Dan MacCarthy at Kagin's has written pretty convincingly that the 1776-dated continental dollars were likely souveniers rather than official U.S. coinage. I have no idea how PCGS currently categorizes these coins.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Valued Member
United States
461 Posts |
NS
Thanks and back at you.
We are obviously both compellingly interested in this period and how the Founding Fathers came up with such a simple but complex document that is still being actively interpreted by our state and federal courts.
Every time I read a scholarly book on the origins of the Constitution, it leads to another book, and there are many things these Professors disagree on, some very important.
I read the Articles of Confederation once in its entirety in college. I think I understand the exigencies caused by their limitations pretty well, but I have never looked closely into US history and government under the Articles. You have stimulated me to pursue learning more.
Best,
SM
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Moderator
United States
188213 Posts |
A fantastic discussion, indeed. I have enjoyed reading the arguments, which have been quite civil.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
982 Posts |
apcol258: Quote:
There's arguments on both sides, but at the end of the day PCGS is a for profit company with a good deal of bias. While I am sure they have some of the best experts in the field working for them, they ultimately have other motives. Hmm, perhaps PCGS has a new specialty label in mind for future submissions of Fugio cents?  |
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Moderator
United States
188213 Posts |
Quote:
Hmm, perhaps PCGS has a new specialty label in mind for future submissions of Fugio cents? I think we found a winner.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3644 Posts |
Sooooooo . . . If federal legal tender status is the issue, shouldn't the Spanish coinage that was legal tender from the Coinage Act of 1792 until the Coinage Act of 1857 also be considered federal?
*duck and cover*
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Valued Member
United States
461 Posts |
FC
I don't think so. The Spanish coins were issued and made by Spain or by the Spanish colony (I'm not sure which), not by the US mint.
Coins made by the US mint for other countries would be issues of those countries.
The discussion hasn't been about legal tender status. Clearly Spanish coins were the predominant circulating coinage and legal tender until 1857. The question is whether PCGS is correct in calling the Fugio coppers federal issues, or whether they are pre-federal coins. Opinions expressed differ and this thread is an interesting read about the USA's earliest years.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
I think the 1783 Nova Constellatio Coppers struck in England were the first commissioned US federal coinage. They were commissioned, but not by the government. Quote:
Sooooooo . . . If federal legal tender status is the issue, Legal tender has noting to do with it. Money didn't have to be legal tender to be and official government issue. Look at the large cents and Half Cents. They were not legal tender during the entire period of their issuance. Cents didn't get legal tender status until 1864 (there is some question as to whether the act of 1864 gave legal tender status to the older coins, or if it only applied to the bronze cents created by the act), and Half Cents were not legal tender until a hundred years later in 1965. But they were still US government issued coins. Edited by Conder101
01/07/2022 12:23 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11881 Posts |
It is interesting that the word "Federal" does not appear at all in the U.S. Constitution. That term appears throughout the 85 essays penned by Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison between October 1787 and May 1788 under the pen name of "Publius" in support of the new U.S. Constitution in a set of writings known as the Federalist Papers. In the introduction to the Federalist Papers written by Alexander Hamilton in 1787 at the approximate age of 32, he writes at the top of Federalist Paper No. 1 published in the New York newspaper Independent Journal in 1787: "To the People of the State of New York: AFTER an unequivocal experience of the inefficiency of the subsisting federal government, you are called upon to deliberate on a new Constitution for the United States of America." https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-p...per-25493264Here we see primary evidence where Alexander Hamilton, a founder of our nation, asserts unequivocally in the first sentence of the Federalist Papers that the government that existed before the U.S. Constitution was a federal government. Therefore the 1787 Fugios must be federal issues. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/07/2022 03:38 am
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Moderator
United States
188213 Posts |
Quote:
That term appears throughout the 85 essays penned by Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison between October 1787 and May 1788 under the pen name of "Publius" in support of the new U.S. Constitution in a set of writings known as the Federalist Papers. Sorry, I feel compelled... "...Hamilton wrote the other 51!"  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11881 Posts |
It is true that John Jay fell ill after penning just 5 articles. Madison was more prolific contributing 29, but Hamilton carries most of the weight at 51 of the 85 essays. There was also opposition to the new constitution by the so-called anti-federalists who wrote under the pen names of Brutus and Cato.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Replies: 63 / Views: 5,726 |
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Posted 01/06/2022 12:12 pm
