In countries where slabs aren't popular, why is that? What are most collectors thinking when they find a coin that they have been looking for in a slab? Are they telling themselves, "Ugh, because of this plastic case, I'll have to pay more if I want that particular example, without it the price would be much less." Perhaps they see the grade as an arbitrary number that can inhibit a coin's potential value. "This piece really is VF, but because the graders think it's F, the value is somewhat inhibited." Is it seen as some businessman's hustle trying to create an unnecessary standard in their collecting sphere? "Collectors from previous generations never require slabs, so why should there suddenly be a need for them?" Perhaps some people see them as potential tools for institutions to regulate and monitor all coins that come up for sale, as photo technology advances and all coins ever imaged can be secured in a "data base" of some sort for easy search and check-ups? The places where slabs are popular obviously see the value in using them, whether it be to have their coins authenticated or to be confident in the condition their coin is in with the hope of selling them later. This is probably why its super serious when PCGS or NGC mis-grades a coin (the grading game) or encapsulates a counterfeit coin and claims it to be authentic, as I'm guessing it calls into question their reliability. I'm curious, what are collectors outside the US or in places where slabs aren't popular thinking when someone introduces a coin to them that's been TPGed?
If this piece was put on ebay, what would be an appropriate price to sell it for? After taxes and shipping, I'm guessing the total price would come to around $180ish? What price should the piece be listed on ebay for so that the seller has a decent return, after taxes and shipping costs?
Taking a quick glance at population reports, NGC records having straight graded 11 examples and details graded 8 examples (1758B 600 Reis), so no doubt a rarer coin.
@Sap Before TPGs were introduced onto the numismatic scene, did collectors hold any prejudice towards coins that would receive a "details" grade today like many US collectors do, or is this mostly a modern invention that's come about as a result of companies like PCGS, NGC, and ANACS put their "seal of approval" on coins? Obviously a damaged coin is a damaged coin (scratches, graffiti, environmental effect) and would sell at a lower price than an undamaged coin. But what about coins that have been cleaned, or have questionable toning? I've seen some coins that appeared totally fine prior to grading, but then came back with a "tooled" designation. For American buyers, the plastic label might detract some of the value from the original coin, but for non-American buyers, perhaps not so much. Is a scenario like this in the US largely a modern invention?
I don't have 40 years of coin collecting experience under my belt, so a lot of what I've learned about the hobby was through magazines, books, and websites, all of which have numerous advertisements from TPG companies on their front page or jacket covers.
I guess in other words, what I'm asking is how did the hobby change after TPG companies entered the scene?
That's a good point, the XF is in much better shape than the VF. If both pieces were not encapsulated, the difference between the pieces would be very noticeable. A good example of buying the holder and not the coin on my part
Also, the XF sold in 2021 when the market was red hot and lockdown was in full swing, so perhaps a larger volume of buyers were participating in auctions then (I'm hypothesizing)?
I guess another question to ask is which countries are TPGs most popular and relied upon by collectors, and which countries are they seen more as an unnecessary "accessory?" I'd bet Asian markets rely upon TPGs quite a bit because of the prevalence of fakes and super-fakes. I'm guessing European markets not so much? How about South American markets, like Brazilian collectors? There is no doubt that US collectors favor TPGed coins over "raw" coins, cooked to personal preference
Here are two Brazilian 600 Reis silver pieces, both minted in 1758. Both coins were given a "details" grade designation by NGC. One is graded VF Details, the other XF Details. If I saw these two pieces side by side at a coin shop, I would assume the price for each to be a bit similar. Well, one piece sold for $192, the other $1,200! Why is there such a large price difference between these two pieces even though both pieces are separated by just a few grade points?
I'm not a big fan of TPGs unless I plan on selling any coins. I like to hold them, look at them up close under a microscope (dissecting microscope) or magnifying glass, and study the edges. I'd love to buy a nice wooden coin cabinet with velvet and well-constructed trays that will last me a long time. Something nice, compact, not too big and gaudy, efficient in storage space (I've seen some cabinets designed where the space between each coin slot is an inch, a bit too bulky for me), and well-protected. Who are the high-quality cabinet producers that design cabinets to last a long time and not fall apart in a couple years? Perhaps I'm searching for something more akin to a small jewelry box, but nothing as big as a desktop computer. Coin capacity might be around 50, maybe a little more?
The most important thing though is size. I can't stress this enough. Are there any nice, compact, small coin cabinets out there that can hold a lot of coins? If I was silly, I can store a collection of 30 coins in a small sock. I would never do that of course, but I'm stressing the fact that coins themselves don't require a lot of storage space. But when I look for any cabinets out there that can store 30 coins or more, the cabinets are huge!
Would anyone here have any suggestions for a novice?
Is anyone here able to identify the coin in this frame? This is from the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. I don't think its period, which is kind of a bummer.
Perhaps this can help add a little bit to the discussion here.
Here's an old half penny token from the Quebec Bank minted in 1852. Although this was minted much later than 1787, the porous surface of the coin looks similar to the surface on the original NJ piece on the first page. The reason why I put this here is because this token isn't exactly rare or highly valued. Of all the coins to counterfeit, I doubt a criminal would dedicate their resources to counterfeiting this particular token. Maybe something else is up?
I watched this video here a while back that talks about patina and toning on ancient bronze coins:
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Towards the end of the video, the guy mentions that the surface of many bronze/copper coins can mineralize after being exposed for some time to the environment. I don't quite understand the chemistry behind it, but essentially the chemical content of the coins outer surface changes. This might be related to bronze disease (that nasty blue color that we see engulfing some copper coins that once it starts, it doesn't go away but spreads). If the coin is cleaned and the outer mineralized layer is removed, the details on the coin are also removed, leaving behind a "pitted" surface (sort of like a person's face after surviving small pox). Maybe this is what happened to the colonial piece? 1787 is a long time ago, and the coin itself may have contracted a serious case of bronze disease, or developed the condition many times, and therefore it was cleaned many until its present state? Each time it was cleaned, it lost details on its surface, which is why it looks so "pitted." New Jersey can also have a humid climate during certain parts of the year, which can maybe cause bronze to corrode or tarnish over time? Factor in the fact that that piece has been exposed to such a climate for 100-150 years, and thus you have a bronze coin that has been damaged by the environment?
Anyone here ever considered or used a dissecting microscope to look at their coins? These aren't conventional microscopes, but sort of look like this: https://www.amazon.com/Dissecting-M...g+Microscope
Biologists use them to zoom in and study the details on objects like leaves and insects. I bet they could also be used to study coins, although I haven't discussed these with anyone before.
I'd say wait until 2024-2025 before prices noticeably drop, coins shot up in price around 2008 and very slowly dropped after that until Covid happened. The economy doesn't look so good right now, so a lot of people are following the "don't invest in the market" trend. Thus, more people than usual are choosing to invest in alternatives, like numismatics. Once the market starts to do well again, and everyone feels confident that the market will perform, then more and more people will follow that trend and switch their investing to the stock market. It could take a couple years maybe before general feelings towards the market are "optimistically confident," so until then coin prices will be higher than usual. This is just me adding my uneducated opinion after looking at past trends in the coin market compared to the stock market and reading a few investment books here and there. I'm just a novice here and don't have years under my belt like some people here, so take what I say with a decent grain of salt. I am definitely missing those under $20 silver dollar prices, and maybe it is too late to buy certain coins again at their 2015-2019 prices, but I'd bet the vast majority of coins will drop in price. You just need to be patient! Some coins will stay high and continue to rise in value, but only a minority. Most will drop in price or stay the same.
With numismatics, at some point, I feel some "investors" (me recently) realize that coins don't pay regular returns, and unlike investing in companies, indexes, or governments, which have the promise of return and continued growth, these coins stay put and hopefully remain in the same shape in the safe or drawer until someone else comes along and asks to pay more for it than I or you paid for it. The Greater Fool Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
Of course, perhaps the motivation behind what drives certain markets is not the same. Chinese coins may stay valuable and continue to be valuable as coins are one method in which wealthy and normal Chinese individuals can store and transfer wealth through a medium which their government cannot track. Perhaps premium coins from countries with more "totalitarian-style" governments (wealth control) will continue to rise in value as wealthy people in those countries seek to store and move money in ways that don't require digital interactions. I'm purely speculating, but if I was a Chinese businessman trying to store or move my savings in a country that examines every digital footprint I leave behind, or perhaps I want to pay an untraceable bribe, of course I'd use coins (small valuable little items that airports/train security don't know how to identify; two Chinese silver dollars that look identical to the untrained eye could be both $100 and $20,000-$100,000, the average person cannot tell the difference!). The average American investor doesn't face the same challenges the average Chinese investor faces when investing personal wealth (in the US, the government can't just swoop in and lock access to your personal savings for no reason, which is possible in communist China), so how both parties feel entering the coin market could be different.
These are just a few ideas I've thought up while observing and passively studying numismatics, so I'm probably very wrong (perhaps some element exists, but very very minimally).
Regardless of the "investment" angle to coins, I love this hobby
@Secret Argent Man Would you care to elaborate more on your idea? It sounds interesting! When I mention a super rare coin, I don't necessarily mean a coin that is worth thousands of dollars, or even tens of thousands of dollars. From what I've seen, there are many many coins that only come up a handful of times each year or every other year, but they don't cost an arm and a leg. They're just not popular. I'm talking about a coin that might have sold for maybe $800-$1500 six years ago, but then suddenly, a bunch comes up for sale and they all sell for between $150-$400, or even less. The same goes for tokens as well.
If I was a coin enthusiast working and living in a place where $150 is a lot of money (a couple weeks to a month's salary), of course I'd consider trying to manufacture modern forgeries, especially if I have experience in craftsmanship, jewelry, or metal working. I could potentially turn $1 worth of raw materials into 100x or even 1000x that. There's an incentive for someone out there to do this, and I'm curious to know of more examples in this hobby's history where many "experts" at the time were fooled by the really good counterfeiters.
@tdziemia The sources that I use to look up how many examples of a particular coin have sold and for what amount in the past are mostly from the bigger American auction house archives (the usual like Stack's, Heritage, GC, and others), as well as some of the archive websites any person can subscribe too for more international information (European for the most part). However, many of these services don't include data and information from auction house records in Asia (language barrier probably). Plus, there are many domestic and international auction house archives that can't be easily found online unless you know that the auction house exists. So, perhaps the data I have as an amateur is skewed and doesn't paint the full picture. I'd imagine though that if the vanguards of numismatics here in the US don't often see a particular type of coin, than smaller auction houses will rarely if ever see that coin as well. Of course, maybe in the US some coins are rarely seen because all the collectors are abroad in Europe or Asia, where those same coins may come up for sale a lot more often and the news just never travels here because the interest is more niche to us Americans.
I just wanted to throw this question out to all the experts here and people who have been collecting coins for many years now (as a novice). I'd love to read what you guys have to say regarding this question. This is merely hypothetical.
Let's say there's a coin that rarely ever comes onto the market, an example where the frequency of market appearances is maybe just a hand full of times every 1-3 years, maybe even only once a year or once every other year. However, this coin isn't very popular and well known, the average collectors won't know about it unless they've taken the time to do the research and explore other areas of numismatics (both domestic and international).
Suddenly, in the span of maybe 1-3 months, multiple multiple examples come up for sale in different coin shops and auction houses, sometimes in auction houses in different countries. For example, a coin that is seen only once a year or once every three years, suddenly 5 are available for sale. The prices they start to sell at or do sell at are lower than the prices previous examples have sold for. The high-valued examples sold in the past were all TPG verified, but the examples for sale today aren't. Even though the coins aren't TPG verified, they still look descent and ok (they've got the "old", "crude", "circulated" look to them).
As a "seasoned" collector noticing a sudden influx of rare coins entering the market, would this indicate something fishy is up, that something doesn't seem right? Have any of you noticed this happening in the past where later on it was realized that many of the coins that came onto the market between certain years were all fake? Or perhaps they were all genuine, and many examples just suddenly managed to come onto the market for whatever reason? An examples to share?
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1182.html This French piece is pretty good and close to the coin in the image, except the direction the face is looking at is flipped. Could the image above be inverted?
It's the twist in the beard in the coin design that stumps me. That and the face seems to be missing its nose.
Hello all! I found this picture of a Senegalese woman in traditional dress and ornaments that was taken back in 1910. What caught my attention was the charm she is wearing around her neck, which I believe might be a silver coin of some sort. Can anyone here guess what this coin might be? Given the details in the photo, I just can't seem to pinpoint which exact coin she has attached to her necklace. The details on the coin in the picture I think are of a face, but whose face I can't tell. Thanks y'all!
Posted 05/25/2023 3:47 pm
