colonialjohn's Last 20 Posts
| Recent Pickup - Contemporary Counterfeit Chihuahua 8 Reales
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
 Posted 04/18/2025 5:37 pm
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| Excellent. This article does explain why a counterfeit may exist for Chihuahua Cast 8R's and perhaps may explain why some may have plain edges if of a debased silver alloy? although they even had some degree of edging these pieces Its also interesting that other Zacatecas type counterfeits may exist. This may help explain some unusual Monclova pieces that I am currently writing about - in short 3/50 this is huge! JPL |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| Recent Pickup - Contemporary Counterfeit Chihuahua 8 Reales
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 04/16/2025 6:25 pm
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| I did receive your message and indeed yours is an interesting Chihuahua Cast 8R's. As with any exploratory work in counterfeits I do think we need to proceed slowly. Luckily I was wrong in that in the Mexican Numismatic Association Website for members only under the MNA Journals section of September 2013 my XRF study of Chihuahua and some later restrikes (i.e., post 1815) is present for your review and for any other MNA member. One thing I have noticed for typical MNA members is that anything that looks different is immediately a probable counterfeit and/or probably produced much LATER and is not of the same striking period. I guess this EASIER on the brain thinking this way - ALWAYS. This specimen however is crude as is my Specimen #3 and Specimen #3 did have surface XRF values performed which need to be used with caution due to some effects of silver surface enrichment as the outside corrosion layer of a silver copper alloy is almost always different than its core. In any case a triplicate surface XRF analysis yielded Ag (55.39% - 76.49%), Cu (20.13%-51.05%) however Au (0.31-0.33%) and Pt (0.72-0.78%) were as with so-called regal levels or other specimens of ~90% Ag and therefore the silver appears to be of the period. I have mentioned this several times and to Max Keech and Mike Dunnigan I have seen several (~ 3 specimens) and own one Chihuahua Cast Regal 8R with a PLAIN EDGE. So this cast making process during these turbulent revolutionary times may not always be 100% perfect without some anomalies IMO? Perhaps even the silver content at ~90%? Unfortunately I can not ZOOM-IN into my September 2013 enough to compare the pillar of Hercules but from memory it may be as crude/similar to this piece with this crude countermark which is very different. Suffice to say its a really crude piece similar to yours as the portrait strike is very weak and the quality is way off as compared to most others. It should also be noted that specimen #4 in my study had 90% Ag readings in triplicate but weighed only 22.9 grams. I suspect with a large enough database this 26.5 gram standard weight for Chihuahuas if there ever was one may not be much of any significance? So in conclusion - my Specimen #3 piece is as crude as yours IMO and is of a low silver and heavily debased with copper but the Pt/Au levels demonstrate it to be a probable period piece whether made by the Royalists or an outside counterfeiter. Just as some Chihuahuas have plain edges can some be debased with copper due to silver inventories not always being ADEQUATE? Specimen #4 in my study with 90% Ag in a surface triplicate analysis and its weight at 22.9 grams seems to suggest this premise. I am also working on a paper now for publication later this year on Monclova counterfeits possibly of the period. Just FYI. |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| The 1809 Mexican Chilpanzingo / Zmy Script Mint Stamp Dilemma?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 03/27/2025 7:49 pm
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| Max even had people from his current company go into the archives and look at all the historical documents. I did go through the coin archives both for War of Independence mint stamps and Kleebergs. Some pictures are tough to view. But you make a good point. Briggs & Bustos recently had a Counterfeit Sale. Check out lot 24. We have this from the lot description: Countermark of "Chilpancingo" representing the insignia of the Supreme National Congress composed of a halberd on the left, a quiver on the right, a hand in the center holding a bow with an arrow and a sling underneath. As an unalterable rule of this issue, all the punches are characterized by the loop of the sling located on the same side of the quiver and most frequently they are presented with partial weakness, in contrast, the loop of the sling in the punch of the piece offered here is on the left and the Counterstamp was applied with too much pressure, in addition to the fact that all the elements present a cruder aspect, therefore modern FALSE, barely overlapping with the apocryphal Morelos counterstamp. Counterstamps applied on the bust of an authentic 8 Reales 1803 Mo FT coin, intentionally corroded after the application of the counterstamps, perhaps to make it appear to be melted, profuse dark patina. In paper envelope with annotations and supposed Iguala provenance, Ex. Clyde Hubbard. Note the bold highlight. Correct. Its important. 3/50 piece conforms to all the rules. Its a good mint stamp by the Supreme Junta. Its complex for sure. The learning curve is long and if not a MNA member - impossible. |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| The 1809 Mexican Chilpanzingo / Zmy Script Mint Stamp Dilemma?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 03/25/2025 6:30 pm
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First I consider all these piece legitimate with the exception of the ZMY mint stamp on the Villa piece but the VIlla piece does not break any rules in terms of the proper Lva position (right central obverse), the Lva mint stamp in its design and being by itself is acceptable (i.e., occurs 2% of the time) according to Keech. Also Supreme Junta Arms over a Morelos stamp (Stacks piece) seems legal as Morelos did work with the Supreme Junta Insurgency group in 1811 before going out on his own in mid-1812.
What about the 1809 Supreme Junta Arms over Lva. This occurs 20% of the time where these mint stamps are found together. Whether the Supreme Junta Arms mint stamp is permissable over an LVA stamp is unknown to me at this time.. Keech speculates the Lva belongs to Osorno but there is no documented proof. A debased silver cast alloy.
3/50 Piece:Your piece is 1812 Mo JJ or KM#111 for the prototype. Host coin is acceptable. Its the second rarest host at a 5% occurrence. The most rare is Charles III (1772-1789) at a 3% occurrence. With a 5% occurrence and SO late as a mother coin (1812) could this explain its low silver appearance? Probably. BTW to me it looks cast then mercuric silvered based on the reverse. It appears also to have more reverse mercuric silvering than the obverse silvering which poses the question since the mint stamp is legitimate based on its design why is it on this degraded low Ag host coin? It was the end of the cast production period for the Supreme Junta Insurgent period. This seems the likely answer IMO. A XRF gun can't pick up mercury. Your coin would be better served in a vacuum type XRF analysis that can pick up Hg and show it was mercuric silvered BTW. In this case you would pick up probable higher Ag levels with reverse target points than obverse target points. Hg can not be detected using a cheap crude XRF gun analysis. I agree after this Monclova SEM/EDS project I am currently working on this would make an excellent MNA Journal study. Perhaps later this year like Winter 2025. What alloy Ag levels are acceptable in a casted coin from a Mother coin? Good question. TO BE DETERMINED/CONTINUED. IMO. JPL |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| United Kingdom Of Portugal, Brasil And Algarves, 960 Reis
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 03/25/2025 08:55 am
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The Brazil 960 Reis, or "patacão," is indeed a fascinating coin with a rich history. These coins were struck over Spanish 8 Reales and similar coins, making them unique in their composition and design. Historically, they were minted during a transitional period when Brazil evolved from being a colony to becoming part of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarve in 1815.
Given this context, the classification of these coins can be nuanced:
Colonial Coins: If we consider the period before 1815, when Brazil was still a colony, these coins could be classified as colonial.
Kingdom Coins: After 1815, when Brazil became a kingdom on equal footing with Portugal, these coins are better classified as coins of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarve.
The overstrike on Spanish 8 Reales adds another layer of intrigue, as it reflects the practical use of foreign coins as planchets due to the scarcity of silver in Brazil at the time. This practice was common in regions where local mints adapted foreign coins for circulation.
So, while the term "colonial coin" might apply to earlier issues, the correct classification for the 960 Reis minted after 1815 would align more with Brazil's status as a kingdom. Numismatists often refer to these coins as "Kingdom Coins" or "United Kingdom Coins" to reflect their historical significance. |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| The 1809 Mexican Chilpanzingo / Zmy Script Mint Stamp Dilemma?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 03/24/2025 9:33 pm
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| See my USMEX Journal - September 2013 "1811-1822 Chihuahua Eight Reales Metallurgical XRF Study" by John Lorenzo. Actually it was not deleted but reappeared in the MNA website under Journals. No real change in information since 2013 with 1811-1813 Chihuahua pieces and expect some rare debasement in some pieces. Expect a few with plain edges but also very rare. I am working on a new SEM/EDS study on Monclova pieces like the recent upside down Monclova in the Briggs & Bustos Counterfeit auction. A few surprises. Its an unusual piece. In terms of your question with Chilpancingo a lot has changed since Max Keech did his June 2022 MNA Journal. These Supreme Junta stamps were applied at times of striking. Post a picture of your debased silver issue and will continue this conversation. Moving forward with all the work Max Keech has done we can with great confidence determine what is a genuine mint stamp and what is a fake stamp. From this if the mint stamp is real we can expect some deviation of silver purity but this still has to be explored. We know what the mint stamp should look like, we know the proper year range, we know the proper host coins - we know now the proper allowable mint stamp combinations with Supreme Junta/Morelos/Lva combinations - so silver/copper ratios I would say still have to be explored and what is acceptable? We should expect some deviations say from ~90% Ag. Its mint stamp dependent / its host dependent. JPL |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| US Counterstamp On Spanish Coin?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 02/14/2025 2:11 pm
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| A 3 Cent Dime (1851-1873) struck on a 2 reales from Mexico City piece is a fascinating numismatic anomaly. This likely occurred due to an intentional test strike. Die testing involves striking coins to ensure the dies are properly aligned and functioning correctly. Sometimes, planchets (blanks) from different coinage systems are used for these tests, leading to unique and rare pieces like this one. The combination of a U.S. 3 Cent Dime die and a Mexican 2 reales planchet would result in a coin with features from both, making it a highly collectible item. Both these pieces are 90% Ag alloy pieces so a 2 reales would make a good test piece. UNUSUAL. Not a counterstamp/countermark. JPL. |
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| Freon-Tf The Ultimate Copper Coin Cleaner/Eac Coin Care/Usepa/Current Situation
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/29/2025 11:08 am
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What is Freon-TF and why was it banned by EPA? Describe its primary purposes and its superiority in cleaning copper with no other close competitor cleaning product based on laboratory comparison research and its well-known superiority in the hard surface industrial cleaning business.
Freon-TF, also known as 1,1,2-trichloro-1,2,2-trifluoroethane (CFC-113), is a chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) extensively used as a cleaning solvent in various industrial applications due to its high density and low viscosity2. Some primary uses of Freon-TF included:
Cleaning Electronic Components: Freon-TF was widely used for cleaning delicate electronic equipment because of its non-reactivity.
Degreasing Metal Parts: Its effective solvent properties made it suitable for removing grease and other contaminants from metal parts.
Copper Cleaning: Freon-TF was especially efficient in cleaning copper, earning a reputation for being superior to other cleaning agents in this application. Its high density and low viscosity allowed for thorough cleaning, ensuring minimal residue left behind.
Despite its effectiveness, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) banned Freon-TF because of its environmental impact. Specifically, Freon-TF contributes to ozone layer depletion, which leads to increased harmful ultraviolet radiation reaching the Earth's surface1. This not only affects human health but also ecosystems, prompting global agreements like the Montreal Protocol to phase out such substances.
In terms of copper cleaning, Freon-TF was unmatched because of its unique properties:
Superior Solubility: Freon-TF could dissolve substances that other solvents couldn't, resulting in a higher degree of cleanliness.
Non-Corrosive Nature: It didn't corrode or damage copper surfaces, making it ideal for applications requiring high precision.
Efficient Cleaning: The solvent's physical properties allowed for the removal of contaminants without leaving residues, ensuring the copper surfaces remained pristine and conductive.
The search for effective and environmentally friendly alternatives to Freon-TF continues, as it remains a significant challenge to match its superior cleaning properties with a lower environmental impact.
Originally it was in Coin Care the old EAC original product. Today an inferior substitute chloro/fluro-hydrocarbon is substituted. I did work in the Aviation military parts business sector as an Environmental Safety Manager and USEPA eventually did ban Freon-TF for this military product sector. It took a year with comparing to a dozen substitutes in a parts washer operation to eventually settle as the current Coin Care/Verdi care/other inferior products have done in their copper cleaning availability. What is the current situation. Is it available? |
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| Question About Cleaning With Acetone
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/28/2025 6:41 pm
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| Usually I don't waste time on cleaning coin responses but since I just had left knee replacement surgery I have more time to monkey around in CCF - POST A PICTURE OF THE COIN. Then we can proceed. |
| | Forum: Main Coin Forum |
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| Johnny Thorpe Son Of Olympian Jim Thorpe - The Great Cob Treasure Find Of Essex County, NY?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/21/2025 4:00 pm
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| Coins finally evaluated. All coins are 20thC modern forgeries non-Ag coins. Light coins/non-silver/set may have been purchased from Johnny Thorpe but all coins are fake. Were they dug as fake coins or was this set a third party set? Son was extremely honest. Retuned money for set purchased same day as he was local. VERY DISAPPOINTING. Dan Sedwick would have sole just the coins if real. With all the associated documentation there was a shot it could have been this unusual land find. Keep digging/trying ... <BG>. |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit Vs. War Of Independence Mother Coin Prototype
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/19/2025 12:28 pm
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A recent pickup at the NYITL does pose an interesting comparison for this coin as either being a currently UNIQUE GNL variety (specifically: GNL# 1810-O:F/R: Lima JP-002 based on my current ongoing database of new GNL varieties) or a WOI prototype? Its metrology is 38.55 mm and 24.28 grams. I have XRF tested Chihuahua cast silver regal issues KM# 123 for the 1811-1813 types and some weights are outside and below 26 grams into 24 and 25 grams range and some are slightly debased silver with copper. This was published in a previous MNA Journal but removed several years later due to all WOI papers being removed from the MNA Journal based on new Max Keech discoveries of countermark or more accurately as suggested by Max Keech as mint stamps and his different meanings and origins as compared to the Pradeau bible of WOI. Interestingly some rare 1810 Ca (mintmark) RP (Assayer) types have been recorded. This particular piece has a different head style than seen on all previous Chihuahua Cast regals (KM#128) since at this time all Chihuahua Cast Silver pieces produced by the Royalists in the Mexican War of Independence used Mexico City coins as MOTHER COINS based on my research. Mother coins being a term used as regal issue 8R coins were used to make the cast molds and then after making the molds then changing the mintmarks to Ca and assayer to RP in the actual molds produced by the regal coin always being from Mexico City. See this interesting Chihuahua prototype for Chihuahua using an earlier Charles IV dated 1805 instead of Ferdinand VII sold at Stacks awhile back to give you a better understanding of what a WOI prototype is in this realm of collecting: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...ced-in-1810. The edge on this GNL CCC8R coin is crude and it seems each circle and rectangle or square (whatever is your viewpoint) was hand punched into the edge. So no Treasury (T) or Pillar of Hercules mint stamps as per Max Keech, no mint changed to Ca and assayer change to RP but XRF results yield a ~80% Ag issue similar in some assays to Chihuahua Silver Casts (KM#128). Additionally, the end ribbons being as KM#106.2 for the prototype matching a Peruvian Mint 1810 regal 8R in KM. Still its high silver content and cast appearance does possibly a suggest a Mexican WOI Mother Coin Prototype? Why the high silver? Still a longshot - I agree - but a piece suggesting a link to the Chihuahua pieces IMO. An interesting discussion piece nevertheless. John Lorenzo, Numismatist, USA.
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| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| Johnny Thorpe Son Of Olympian Jim Thorpe - The Great Cob Treasure Find Of Essex County, NY?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/15/2025 7:17 pm
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Once in awhile I come across an interesting coin or story but in this case it may be both (i.e., coins and a story). Here is the background: Johnny Thorpe was a legendary trapper and treasure hunter. He is best known for his book, "50 Years A Trapper & Treasure Hunter", where he recounts his adventures. One of his notable finds was the Lost Pond Silver Cache in Essex County, New York (not New Jersey). This cache included 27 lbs. of silver ingots, 43 lbs. of lead bars, 24 Spanish eight reales, 4 Spanish reales, and 17 Spanish milled dollars.
Thorpe's life was full of exciting stories and remarkable discoveries. He was also an accomplished writer and woodcarver. His contributions to the trapping and treasure hunting communities have left a lasting legacy. This book you can verify is being sold on EBay. I live in Northern NJ and I assist a person who works at a local antique/coin store selling stuff for him on EBay and evaluating certain numismatic finds that pop into his store. This one was interesting. The son of the father that knew Johnny Thorpe (Johnny Thorpe - son of the well known Indian Jim Thorpe the famous Olympian. The movie portrayed by Burt Lancaster)) knew Johnny personally in upstate NY and sold him these items. See pictures below:
Process. There are five cobs. Bring to the New International Coin Show this week for Cob evaluation. Verify if Cobs are real period pieces. If real try to bring this whole package to an auction house. Some auction houses where one has already said this could be a legal issue. But unsure? They would have no problem selling the coins however. But we have the coins assuming they turn out real with a letter from Thorpe with his signature (i.e., true - is it a real Thorpe signature?). What more can be done. Johnny Thorpe died in 2015. He has been discussed in the Treasurenet website as a well known legend treasure hunter. An archaeological find like this should be cataloged with this frame, letter and pedigree possibly with some disclaimer. What do you suggest? Be as negative as you wish. What else can I do? If the coins are real a find like this should be recorded at auction IMO. What do you suggest moving forward?
His obituary: Stony Creek:
Johnny Thorpe, a celebrated figure among trappers and die-hard outdoorsman, passed away at his home in Stony Creek, New York on October 27, 2015. His death coincided with the sixth super moon of the year with the fifth being the ultra-rare "blood moon".
Legendary trapper, seasoned treasure hunter, and master woodcarver are just some some of the titles Johnny Thorpe earned in his long and colorful life. He was also an accomplished writer, with hundreds of outdoor articles to his credit, written over the course of half a century. He published his memoir, "50 Years A Trapper & Treasure Hunter" in 1995 and it has remained in print to the present, a testament to Thorpe's storytelling talent.
Thorpe's status as an elder statesman of trapping was established long ago. He was inducted into the National Trapper's Hall of Fame in 1995, and was known as an articulate advocate of the outdoor lifestyle. He wielded a keen pen, and was sought after as a writer right up to his last published articles for Trapper's World, just a few months before his death. He was also an accomplished and prolific woodcarver, and produced thousands of totem poles, wooden figures, and artwork.
An avid outdoorsman, Johnny was living in a logging camp making more money trapping muskrats than grown men were making in defense plants - at the age of 15. Thorpe was lured to the Adirondacks by tales that spoke to his wilderness soul. After working as a wrangler at the popular dude ranches, Johnny became a farrier when he found he could make more money shoeing horses than riding rodeos. He was recently honored as an Adirondack Cowboy at an awards ceremony in Lake Luzerne in 2014
Johnny met his first wife, Patricia Winch, at the Rocky Ridge Ranch while she was a guest and he was working as a cowboy. After a courtship they settled in Lake Luzerne, eventually having six children.
Johnny is survived by his sons Jim and Bill Thorpe, his daughters Maryellen, Holly and Carolynn, and 7 grandchildren, Keturah Thorpe, Miranda, Mallory, and Marcus Fariello, Madeleine Thorpe and Maxine Reeve, and Jonah Thorpe; and his second wife, Patti Woods.
At Johnny's request there will be no calling hours scheduled. A memorial celebration of his life will take place at a later date next year. A future date will be posted at https://www.JohnnyThorpe.com
John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| Looking For An Identification Of This Coin From 1722
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/05/2025 9:33 pm
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Its a Spanish 1722 Pistareen piece.
A Spanish 1722 Pistareen is a silver coin, specifically a 2 reales piece, minted in Spain during the early 18th century. The term "pistareen" was used in the American colonies to refer to this coin.
Here are some key details about the Spanish 1722 Pistareen:
Composition: Silver
Weight: Approximately 6.77 grams
Fineness: 0.9030 (90.30% pure silver)
Obverse Design: Crowned arms with the legend "PHILIPPUS V D G" (Philip V, by the grace of God)
Reverse Design: Cross with castles and lions in an octolobe pattern, with the legend "HISPANIARUM REX" (King of Spain)
The pistareen was widely circulated in the British colonies of the West Indies and later in the United States and Canada until the early 19th century. It was valued at 20 cents in the U.S. until it was demonetized in 1827. |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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| An 1832 Cap And Ray From Durango At 24.0 Grams. Poorly Silvered CCc Or Regal?
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colonialjohn
Pillar of the Community
United States
1712 Posts |
Posted 01/05/2025 9:30 pm
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| Sometimes Durango pieces have inconsistent weights from the regal standard ~26.5 grams. We may assume for other Mints if generally if more than a 5% weight loss its probably debased silver or a base alloy which has been silvered which is usually <25.5 grams or less. This again at times does not work with Durango mint pieces. Just waiting for Gurney or Realeswatcher who can possibly add some insight into this annoying piece <BG>. |
| | Forum: World Coins and Commemoratives |
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