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The Restored Smackdown VII: Opposites

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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list
Ooops, nearly forgot. Had to do this quick, I'm knackered:

GOLD - VK - Trajan/Libius Severus
SILVER - Eng - Gold Scyphate and Owl - That cartoon scowl on the Scyphate
BRONZE - FR - Caracalla and Geta
Hon- Pish's Marius - very rare thing
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  6:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list
TWO mentions, it is as good as a medal :)

And echo other's praise, good smackdown TIF. Really hard to pick winners.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list
AV ...... Eng5858 Scyphate & Owl

AR ...... VK #1 Trajan % late AE

AE ...... January1May #1 Dolphin & 'Pete' the Great !
Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  7:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ThisIsFun to your friends list
Restored Smackdown VII is in the books! Congratulations, winners-- PM me so we can discuss a prize. Let me know what types of things you collect and I'll see what I can part with.

Thank you to all of the entrants! Votes were widespread-- that's a good thing, lots of interesting pairings. I particularly loved Chris's pastry theme.

The-Restored-Smackdown-VII:--Opposites


Pillar of the Community
United States
1316 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  7:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eng5858 to your friends list
Thank you all that voted for me.Great job on the runners up, very nice coins.Of all the smackdowns this is the first. I want to thank TIF for all the work you do on these events,i know its a lot of work....

I will have smackdown Vlll by tomorrow..
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United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list
Congrats to all the winners.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2013  07:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list
Aww, I have been tied up the last few days and just came back to vote but missed it :S

Anyway, I am glad that my coins were appreciated; I see I got silver :)

There were some great entries for this one...My first thought was to enter an Alex III coin as opposite to a Persian Darius coin (then I saw Dutchgulden had plumped for exactly the same two coins that I would have chosen)

I would have probably voted Jimbo for gold (I particularly like his two entries purely on the eye appeal of these two coins) all winners entries certainly had their merits and were well deserved.


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United States
4966 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2013  10:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrsmat71 to your friends list
congrats ENG and other victors!
Valued Member
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2013  1:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list
Yes, great contest well done to all ..
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2013  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list
Considering someone actually voted for it, I guess I could add some facts about my Peter I coin that I didn't have time to add in my original hurried entry...


Well, first of all, an important missing word is "Russia wire kopek". But I guess most of you know it already Another part that didn't make it to the entry is the catalog reference (KG 1586).

Second, despite the 1696 date, the coin's probably crude enough to pass for medieval if you don't know the specifics. Certainly similar technology had been used for Russian coins in the 15th and even 14th centuries; admittedly the style of (later) Russian wire money is pretty darn recognizable (some part of a horseman on one side, several lines of tiny letters on the other) and hadn't been used as such until the 1530s (early reign of Ivan IV).
[Unrelatedly: I wonder if this practice of putting the legend in several lines in tiny letters is inspired by Byzantine coins (anonymous or not). Certainly early Russian wire coins usually had circular legends, much like other European coinage - but then so did the latest Byzantine issues contemporary to this Russian practice! On the other hand, Arabic coins had multi-line legends since as long as they existed, so they might be a more plausible source of inspiration... ]

And finally, third...
You might've noticed that my original entry dated the coin as "circa 1696", but TIF's recap just gave the date as 1696, without any approximation sings, Which is correct? Both, actually.
This coin issue (KG 1586) is traditionally attributed to the joint rule of Peter I and his brother Ivan V; within that series, die studies put it as very very late, so that it is in fact the last coin listed in the relevant section of the KG catalogue (there are half-kopeks and counterfeits further on in the catalogue, and there is a further volume for Peter I sole coinage, but 1586 is the last officially-issued kopek in its volume of KG).
Meanwhile, other experts started to suspect (as far as I can understand, mainly based on legend matching - most other Peter obverse[1] legends had exact counterparts in Ivan's name, this one doesn't) that this issue is not in fact from Peter's joint rule with Ivan, but from his sole rule (and presumably has no place in this volume of KG, but they included it anyway).
Nevertheless, the traditional view is that Peter I's sole issues are exactly the ones with dates on them (which are at least all for Peter - none are attested for Ivan). KG 1586 doesn't have a date on it - in the place where immediately succeeding issues would have a date (right under the horseman), it says "Russia" (one letter of this inscription is visible on my example). Meanwhile, immediately preceding issues use this place for the mintmark (well, there's a small group of coins with the same reverse that also say "Russia", but all the other reverses have the mintmark in there).
You might wonder where does the dating of this coin come in. Well, the earliest date attested on Peter I coins is (7)204, corresponding to 1695/96 AD and traditionally equated to 1696 (the year actually ended in September); so KG 1586[2], a dateless issue, couldn't have been issued later. (Die studies agree here.) Meanwhile, Ivan V died in January 1696, so if KG 1586 is indeed from Peter's sole rule, it has to be at least as late as that; giving it a period of Jan-Sept 1696, i.e. well within the year 1696.
But of course, as I said, the traditional view is that KG 1586 dates to the joint rule of Peter and Ivan; so if that version is used, the issue is not necessarily from 1696, but could be also from, say, 1695 or possibly even 1694 (it's unlikely to be far earlier).
You probably noticed by now that I'm just juggling expert opinions here. What is my own opinion, you might ask? Well, the "Russia" issue certainly must've had to commemorate something patriotic. There's no obvious candidate in 1694 or 1695, but there is one in 1696 - the conquest of Azov in June-July. As such, my opinion is that this issue commemorates the conquest of Azov (and the general action surrounding it), and was minted in 1696 (likely in August of that year). This is, of course, my opinion only (I couldn't find any specific articles discussing this issue, though I didn't search much); but you can probably see that there's a strong case for 1696 anyway



[1] I've no idea what is the obverse and what is the reverse on Russian wire money; in this discussion, I use the terms based on Wikipedia claiming that the horseman is on the reverse; no idea if this is correct.
[2] from this point on, when I refer to KG 1586, I might as well mean the entire group with "Russia" under horseman, as the conclusions apply to all of them equally
Valued Member
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  05:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list
Thanks for the information January, very interesting. I have been on the look out for a nice example Ivan IV for a while and the ones I have come across look very similar in style and design to your coin.
I am no expert in this field but your assertion that the multi line legends where inspired by Byzantine coins seems likely to me when reflecting on the considerable influence that Byzantine culture and orthodox christianity had on Russia before this period. I suppose its impossible to be certain though.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  05:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ThisIsFun to your friends list
Jimbo-- haven't heard from you yet about a prize and you don't have PM enabled. PM me...

Valued Member
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  07:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list
Hi TIF, have just sent you a mail, please let me know if you dont receive it.

Still need to work out how to enable PM on my profile
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United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list
Jimbo, go to your profile page and on the top you will see a pencil icon click on that to edit your profile enter your password and you will see where you can turn on your e-mail.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list
Thanks Echizento, will give it a try
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